Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

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Mike Lavigne said:
compared to what? or is the question "when is digital good enough?"

objectively, good digital can be youtube on your I-phone. the term 'good' is impossibly vague and totally relative.

subjectively in hifi there are many shades of good digital. all depends on your context. there are $500-$2000 dacs that sound very good....even great. and $10k-$20k dacs that sound quite a bit better, and then $$$$$ dacs that sound quite a bit better. what sandbox are you playing in?

and there are so many ways to optimize digital that those can be separators too.

you could view it as 'good' digital can be similar to your vinyl'; but then how is your vinyl?
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Precisely Mike ,

is digital good when it beats your analog or is it bad if Your analog beats it , I’m getting the impression some are not interested in optimizing their analog and only want a digital victory , mind you some do the same for Their analog rig , i dont find them mutually exclusive seeing how they actually feed off each other if you have both ..


regards
 
a.wayne said:
Precisely Mike ,

is digital good when it beats your analog or is it bad if Your analog beats it , I’m getting the impression some are not interested in optimizing their analog and only want a digital victory , mind you some do the same for Their analog rig , i dont find them mutually exclusive seeing how they actually feed off each other if you have both ..


regards
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See my post above re: sales numbers. The numbers don’t lie. But it’s because of the inconvenience, hassle, cost and risks of analog, not the sound, I’m told.

As I round out my offerings, I often think about my analog situation. VPI, Kronos, Rega, ClearAudio, Ortofon even Kuzma (through the Furutech distributor) and still digital is outselling analog 30 to 1 and 8 to 1 in terms of CD players (CD players!!!) to turntables. I have several turntables on display too. I even have a little clearaudio table and iFi phonostage I’ve loaned out, along with records for people to get a taste and nothing. I hear back, “It was nice, but I hated getting up to change the record every few songs.” Let’s face it, call it what you want, but folks love to sit their with their iPads and explore new music, new bands, even new formats at the touch of a button.

Even when I play an album, the customer asks me to hear the X DAC instead, grabs the iPad and happily plays their music, much of which I’m told, isn’t even on vinyl.
 
a.wayne said:
is digital good when it beats your analog or is it bad if Your analog beats it
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The latter. If my system/ears were limited to 60db dynamic range and I couldn't hear the poor LF performance in terms of depth and dynamics, etc, etc, etc. then all would be good. If I thought an old analog tube TV looked "subjectively" as good as a new SOTA 4k digital then I'd either have my eyes checked or bin the 4k for being broken. If I thought my old polaroid looked as good as a digital SLR, well, that would be my subjective prerogative also. I just wouldn't confuse my preference for objectively much lower performance, as anything but preference.
 
Mike not disagreeing with you , that trend has been with us since the 80’s , i’m suggesting if one has both , they feed off each other ...



Regards
 
AJ Soundfield said:
The latter. If my system ears were limited to 60db dynamic range and I couldn't here the poor LF performance in terms of depth and dynamics, then all would be good. If I thought an old analog tube TV looked "subjectively" as good as a new SOTA 4k digital then I'd either have my eyes checked or bin the 4k for being broken. If I thought my old polaroid looked as good as a digital SLR, well, that would be my subjective prerogative also. I just wouldn't confuse my preference for objectively much lower performance, as anything but preference.
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Ok so you have not heard a good system with analog vs digital..?


i get it ... :)
 
a.wayne said:
Mike not disagreeing with you , that trend has been with us since the 80’s , i’m suggesting if one has both , they feed off each other ...



Regards
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Agreed and well said. But the dilemma, $10k digital and $10k analog or $20k digital or $20k analog? Most are opting to optimize their digital.

And let’s not mention R2R, that’s a whole ‘nother animal.
 
a.wayne said:
Ok so you have not heard a good system with analog vs digital..?


i get it ... :)
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The exact opposite. I regularly hear a system capable of 120+ db dynamic range, with much lower noise, distortion, higher channel separation, lower temporal distortion, vastly better bass depth and power, than any objectively limited vinyl system regardless of price. And I have the demonstrable hearing ability to discern with trust ears/just listening, unlike those who can only brag and make claims with zero demonstrable ability.:)
I also had my eyes checked yesterday. 20/20. So I can see vastly better picture on a 4k set vs an old analog tube TV. It doesn't look like a "pieced together" missing something picture with my vision. Actually, the old tube TV looks downright poor in a side by side comparison.
But I also totally get it if someone says that "subjectively', they prefer the old tube TV for "clarity" and "smoothness', etc, etc for their eyes.
Preferences are not arguable. Objective metrics/facts are.

cheers,

AJ
 
Sure, but 60db ain't the limit either :)

You still romanticizing old analog CRT sets or you watch 4k digital daily? What's your preference there?
 
AJ Soundfield said:
Disagree. They are, just not using the 19th-late 20th century tech methods. They may listen even more than we did given the ease and a phone constantly attached to their person
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Nah , they dont “listen” more than i did , easier access , yes , but we had radio 24/7 if you werent spinning and taped for selective downtime.

Nope they just dont care and prefer gaming , its life ...
 
AJ Soundfield said:
Sure, but 60db ain't the limit either

You still romanticizing old analog CRT sets or you watch 4k digital daily? What's your preference there?
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Your TV analogy dont apply and im sure your system can't produce an acoustical watt as most , so going between 60 and a theoretical 120db that dont exist is mute..

:)
 
Well, never been to the Munich or any Asian shows, but pics show quite a few youths there. How you reconcile that?
 
a.wayne said:
Your TV analogy dont apply
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Except it does. Vastly better objective metrics = better picture. No arguments there other than from crazy luddites.

a.wayne said:
going between 60 and a theoretical 120db that dont exist is mute..
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Wrong. There is nothing "theoretical" about exceeding 60db of dynamic range with digital. There is nothing "theoretical" about the low frequency performance of vinyl, the noise, distortion, channel separation or any other metric. None.
The only "debate" is among luddites claiming it sounds better...to them, subjectively. They prefer it to objectively superior metrics sound. IOW, there is no debate.
 
AJ Soundfield said:
Well, never been to the Munich or any Asian shows, but pics show quite a few youths there. How you reconcile that?
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Funny , I was responding to your century village comment , now you switch Gears... :)

you should go to CES , how do you reconcile audio vs gaming , regardless the youth involvement in audio systems is still small vs gaming world wide ..
 
Randy Myers said:
I read that $9k is not enough to get good vinyl and I think to myself, "is our hobby over pricing itself out of existence". I mean, seriously, how many people out there can truly pay $300k, or $100k, or honestly, even $50k for their audio system?

In our audio club we have maybe one system at that level.... even the writer for Stereophile does not approach those levels...

I think my wife and I do fairly well... yet those levels are not even in the realm of discussion, nor would I want them to be. Many club members consider my setup to be very nice... I am totally happy with it, and yes I believe I have fine tuned my digital (thank you for all the help Mr. Mike!)...

It begins with software and putting together a computer/server that can handle it.... in my case Roon and HQPlayer.... cabling (I settled on the AQ Coffee's after my friend bought the Diamonds and sold me the Coffee's).... a reclocker (W4S Recovery), more cabling (another Coffee), DAC that can do justice to HQPlayer (T+A which can convert 24.6MHz!!!).... more cabling (AQ Earth XLR)... at retail.... about $2500 for server, $500 and $160 for software, cabling at $630 and $1000, $4200 DAC.... so $9k for digital and I consider it world class... maybe my ears are not good enough to appreciate any higher.... :D...
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Randy , man enjoy what you got. No need to spend a bunch of money to keep up with the "Jones" as they say or be able to brag about how much your DAC, AMP or Speakers cost.
 
Metrics such as dynamic range don't equal good sound. I got rid of a DAC because it had to much punch that caused a womp in my ears. It was rough and fatiguing. Now to be fair, I did not have my front end, as in server dialed in yet. My point is dynamic swing is not the end all. You hit a point in any system when loud is loud enough. Your going to start soft clipping, compressing, and making a rough blurred picture. Your going to damage your ears. Far more important is to create beautiful music at low to moderate levels. IMO. Blast away if thats your thing, but it is dangerous to your ears. And if you want to say music is only good if you can create Concert level reproduction, that's an opinion. My opinion is a voice is natural, a violin souda like wood and string, a breath is heard as well as the soft flutter of lips on a saxaphone Reed. When I hear these things at a moderate level, I know I am getting good digital and or vinyl.
 
AJ Soundfield said:
Except it does. Vastly better objective metrics = better picture. No arguments there other than from crazy luddites.


Wrong. There is nothing "theoretical" about exceeding 60db of dynamic range with digital. There is nothing "theoretical" about the low frequency performance of vinyl, the noise, distortion, channel separation or any other metric. None.
The only "debate" is among luddites claiming it sounds better...to them, subjectively. They prefer it to objectively superior metrics sound. IOW, there is no debate.
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Strawman smoke screen argument ..!

I said your system , as well as most audiophile System cannot achieve the theoretical 120db of dynamic range , let me know when you can demonstrate this 120db of dynamic range, this is a non starter , Digital has other real world advantages , DR is not it ..!
 
a.wayne said:
you should go to CES , how do you reconcile audio vs gaming , regardless the youth involvement in audio systems is still small vs gaming world wide ..
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No question gaming is huge, nor that young folks are heavily involved. But I dispute the notion they aren't listening to music as much as we did. They just do it via earbuds and phones...an option we didn't have.
Most absolutely do not want a giant audio shrine and refrigerator size horns, hence the increasing popularity of headphones(!!), soundbars, lifestyle type sources and small, wireless active speakers, etc.
heck, I think even old JA is kicking a pair of wireless(?) LS50s these days and scaling back on the bling shrine. Not suggesting by any means that is the ultimate in audio. Preferences are preferences.
 
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