RepublicOfTexas69
Active member
You get what you pay for.
Am I courting derision and contempt?
- Thread starter Feanor
- Start date
agreed and no argument, my post was obviously taken out of context. With that being said there is plenty of good audio gear coming out of China, so to each his own .........
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
Totally agree. I'm talking about the ones we know are actually manufactured in the USA or China.
I'm not saying I'm right. Just that I choose to spend my $$ to support the ones NOT made in China.
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
Again, I hear you loud and clear and with that being said one of my favorites right in my own backyard, Rogue Audio. Spent good times with Mark over cigars and good whisky
RepublicOfTexas69
Active member
No you did not establish any context. Typical lame excuse....
RepublicOfTexas69
Active member
Your loss....
bfreidah
New member
Great modular design with plenty of capacitance and toroid. The specs claim anywhere for 120 watts/ch to 300/ch depending on which document. Looks like more than 120. They certainly included plenty of closeups of the circuitry. Did you open her up to compare?I just got my self one of the those cheap Chinese clones, that is, a "D5" Dartzeel NHB-108 clone ... see HERE. i got the cheaper "D5" version not the "D5Pro" version which has had greater celebrity.
The vendor says in part ...
Picture might be the "D4Pro" version; I haven't opened the case yet. I chose Silver rather that Black and it looks great.
I paid a total of Cdn$800: $517 for the item, $283 for shipping. Ordered on July 18. shipped from Hong Kong on July 24, received by me in London ON on July 30. The amp seems solidly made and sounds quite decent. At this point it seems a ludicrous bargain.
What's your opinion on copying patent-expired designs of high end equipment?
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
FYI - the real Dartzeel isn't made in the USA. I'm sorry you didn't realize that.
While you worry about the US, I'm going to focus on something worthwhile - teaching my visiting granddaughters to learn to enjoy listening to music and turn them into future audiophiles.
Happy listening.
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brad225
Well-known member
I wasn't referring to your post Michael.
Just my opinion.
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
Ah - thanks Brad. Sorry for the mis-understanding.
Feanor
Active member
- Thread Author
- #33
I haven't cracked the lid yet but will in the next few days. BTW, I suspect the picture may actually be the 'D5 Pro' version, not the 'D5' . I'll post pics of my unit once I've opened it up.
Right now I can report that it sounds very nice. Although I haven't heard that amp for several years, I'd say the 'D5' is pretty commerable to the Pass X150.5 I then owned. Consider, (given the 'D5" is close the the DartZeel design), both are low feedback designs of approx. the same power.
JCS123
Active member
With some of that amazing equipment that you have, I'm betting that they'll catch the bug for sure.
W9TR
Active member
Feanor, the history of your amplifier design is very interesting. You can read about it here:
www.stereophile.com
It started as a DIY project and ended up the genesis of the Dartzeel brand. It is informed by work done by Nelson Pass and Matti Otalla. It is a modification of circuits found in Willi Studer’s tape machines.
It is very simple and elegant in its design and execution. Current amp followed by voltage amp followed by current amp. Each stage has lots of local negative feedback. No global feedback. Devilishly simple and superior to the standard voltage amp followed by high gain current amp with high negative feedback around the whole shebang.
It does raise some interesting questions:
Is it justified for a company to trade on another’s hard earned brand reputation, patents or not?
Is it justified for a company to sell a 150 wpc class AB2 transistor power amp for $60,000?
What constitutes truly original design? We are all drinking from wells others have dug.
Should we boycott companies (and thus the individuals who work there) because we don’t like their government?
The DIY Chronicles, Part One | Stereophile.com
Editor's Note: There is a large contingent of Stereophile readers who design and build their own equipment—the DIY (do it yourself) crowd. Hervé Delétraz from Switzerland has been e-mailing us photos and stories over the last year about his own ambitious DIY amplifier design, so we asked him if...
It started as a DIY project and ended up the genesis of the Dartzeel brand. It is informed by work done by Nelson Pass and Matti Otalla. It is a modification of circuits found in Willi Studer’s tape machines.
It is very simple and elegant in its design and execution. Current amp followed by voltage amp followed by current amp. Each stage has lots of local negative feedback. No global feedback. Devilishly simple and superior to the standard voltage amp followed by high gain current amp with high negative feedback around the whole shebang.
It does raise some interesting questions:
Is it justified for a company to trade on another’s hard earned brand reputation, patents or not?
Is it justified for a company to sell a 150 wpc class AB2 transistor power amp for $60,000?
What constitutes truly original design? We are all drinking from wells others have dug.
Should we boycott companies (and thus the individuals who work there) because we don’t like their government?
Feanor
Active member
- Thread Author
- #36
Feanor, the history of your amplifier design is very interesting. You can read about it here:
The DIY Chronicles, Part One | Stereophile.com
Editor's Note: There is a large contingent of Stereophile readers who design and build their own equipment—the DIY (do it yourself) crowd. Hervé Delétraz from Switzerland has been e-mailing us photos and stories over the last year about his own ambitious DIY amplifier design, so we asked him if...
It started as a DIY project and ended up the genesis of the Dartzeel brand. It is informed by work done by Nelson Pass and Matti Otalla. It is a modification of circuits found in Willi Studer’s tape machines.
It is very simple and elegant in its design and execution. Current amp followed by voltage amp followed by current amp. Each stage has lots of local negative feedback. No global feedback. Devilishly simple and superior to the standard voltage amp followed by high gain current amp with high negative feedback around the whole shebang.
It does raise some interesting questions:
Is it justified for a company to trade on another’s hard earned brand reputation, patents or not?
Is it justified for a company to sell a 150 wpc class AB2 transistor power amp for $60,000?
What constitutes truly original design? We are all drinking from wells others have dug.
Should we boycott companies (and thus the individuals who work there) because we don’t like their government?
So patents are a means to protect technical innovators from competition for a time. That is, not only to reward them personally but, maybe more importantly, to encourage them and others to further innovation. However, patents are not forever, and that is to ensure that innovation becomes widely spread and enjoyed by as much of the population as is possible in a competitive environment.
My opinion, restated, is that once patents are expired it's for the general good, that their innovations be copied and made available according in a competitive market. Bash the mostly small-scale Chinese enterprises if you will but they are providing a desirable and intended economic outcome -- and by way, I doubt that many used any form of forced labor.
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
I must admit I had a small heart attack when they asked to hold the tubes. LOL
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
Per my article the other day - I've finally learned to ignore the 'noise' of those put here to distract us from what we really should be focused on in life.
Ignorance on hifi forums is not one of them.
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Yes, I was quite aware that DartZeel is made in Switzerland. Quite absurd of you to imply that I bought a Chinese clone because I supposed Dartzeel is made in the USA.
RepublicOfTexas69
Active member
It does raise some interesting questions:Feanor, the history of your amplifier design is very interesting. You can read about it here:
The DIY Chronicles, Part One | Stereophile.com
Editor's Note: There is a large contingent of Stereophile readers who design and build their own equipment—the DIY (do it yourself) crowd. Hervé Delétraz from Switzerland has been e-mailing us photos and stories over the last year about his own ambitious DIY amplifier design, so we asked him if...
It started as a DIY project and ended up the genesis of the Dartzeel brand. It is informed by work done by Nelson Pass and Matti Otalla. It is a modification of circuits found in Willi Studer’s tape machines.
It is very simple and elegant in its design and execution. Current amp followed by voltage amp followed by current amp. Each stage has lots of local negative feedback. No global feedback. Devilishly simple and superior to the standard voltage amp followed by high gain current amp with high negative feedback around the whole shebang.
It does raise some interesting questions:
Is it justified for a company to trade on another’s hard earned brand reputation, patents or not?
Is it justified for a company to sell a 150 wpc class AB2 transistor power amp for $60,000?
What constitutes truly original design? We are all drinking from wells others have dug.
Should we boycott companies (and thus the individuals who work there) because we don’t like their government?
Is it justified for a company to trade on another’s hard earned brand reputation, patents or not?
> NO it is not justifiable by any measure .
Is it justified for a company to sell a 150 wpc class AB2 transistor power amp for $60,000?
> Who are we to say yes or no to that? If they have customers that will pay it then good for them that is Capitalism at work and the Swiss are capitalists on like our friends north of the border.
What constitutes truly original design? We are all drinking from wells others have dug.
> Educate yourself Should we boycott companies (and thus the individuals who work there) because we don’t like their government?
> You do you, myself I do not buy knockoffs or counterfeits. If you are of lo morals, ethics and integrity feel free and enjoy... As the owner of 26 patents for engineered products used in industrial transportation and mobility I am biased and despise people who do support counterfeiters and IP thieves.
Tom