Are subwoofers bad for music?

Dan, it’s definitely an interesting topic. I had REL G1 Mk2 subs and Jim and I tried integrating them with the Magico M3’s and we gave up after hours of trying. The REL’s were slow and sluggish and were “taking away” and didn’t have any new technologies for room integration. Basically, move them around and hope for the best. They failed to integrate with the fast Magico’s.

Over the years, I’ve had sunfire subs with my Maggie’s and they worked great and many other subs. Some were good and some, not so much.

I’ve heard several Magico setups with JL Audio subs and those were always awesome and wicked fast. JL Audio, like Magico and others have superb room integration technology.

But the best subs I’ve ever heard, are the Magico Q-Subs and the Avantgarde long bass horn subs. Paradigm makes a cool looking sub too.

Personally, I haven’t found a desire to add a sub to many of my setups over the years. I know subs are more about the midrange than the bass, but I’ve still never found a need too often.


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I definitely love my Martin Logan dual subs with my Magnepans. They are fast, musical and integrate flawlessly. They disappear and you only know that they are their if you turn them off. They have enhanced the music and my enjoyment. But not all subs match well with all speakers. I have a velodyne sub that sounds like crap with my Magnepans. However, I am not so sure that I will be using my subs when I get my PSB T3's.

I can certainly relate to live music having too much bass. 2 or 3 years ago, Stevie Wonder came to town and we had great seats at his concert. The bass was way too loud and drowned out his voice. It ruined the concert.
 
I turned off mine just to see what happened.
My conclusion is that, at this moment, i can´t live without the sub.
At first seconds there is a false sensation of further detail, but after 2 or 3 minutes it is clear that something is missing. Yes, my electronics need the crutch of the subwoofer
 
The dual powered 12 inch subwoofers built into each of my Vandersteen 7 Mk2 speakers are huge winners in my opinion. Deep bass extension, perfect integration and a strong foundation for the music.

The same goes for the outboard Vandersteen Sub Nine subwoofers that I have auditioned, which seamlessly roll over from the internal subs below 100 Hz.

The 11 band equalization on each of the subwoofers allow them to perfectly integrate into my challenging listening room. Richard V. really has it figured out.

Ken
 
I was never a fan of subwoofers, and still not a fan to this day. My first experience was my brothers attempt to match his DQ10’s with a sub. He finally purchased the Dahlquist sub and it was horrible !!! Recently I joined two audiophile societies. Almost every member utilizes subs regardless of the hierarchy of the mains. Even speakers well over $20k are matched with subs. And some do not stop at a stereo pair. Four or more subs are commonly used. I understand why audiophiles use subs. It certainly accomplishes the goal of deeper and more robust bass. i can also understand it’s ability to enhance mids and high frequencies. But my gripe comes with trying to match dedicated subwoofer brands with other brand mains. If you want to knock yourself out, be my guest. But IMHO I have heard more situations where subs denigrate the sound rather than enhance it. In some cases they “steal” imaging, focus and soundstaging from the mains. Something the mains designer worked so hard to achieve. And why would someone want to combined a great selection of mains and amplifiers with class ‘D’ active subs, DSP, equalizers, volume pots and other hocus pocus ?
 
I'm sure subs can be integrated properly, like Joe, I've heard subs not integrated well for the most part.

I personally choose not to go down that road.

The best I've heard subs done, and, I honestly would have not known they were there unless I was told, the first time I heard Kinergetic with their swarm. The subs were audible, just blended the best I've ever heard, seamless.

My friend has six JL in his 2-channel rig, they're blended pretty well, the subs have room correction, I think even with a microphone. Then he also uses a Wavelet.
 
If properly integrated, subs can give much more than low end extension and impact.

The sense of realism increases markedly and it is almost as if you can hear the air of the recording venue.

I'm truly happy with my pair of REL R528SEs.
 
For my needs for music soundfield recreation, subs are a must. YMMV.

As a side note I use Foobar for my music player, which has a spectrum graphic showing exactly how deep the music goes, no guesswork. The guesswork folks might be surprised if they understood what they saw, although some sort of spin would be likely. Or not.
 
AJ Soundfield said:
For my needs for music soundfield recreation, subs are a must. YMMV.

As a side note I use Foobar for my music player, which has a spectrum graphic showing exactly how deep the music goes, no guesswork. The guesswork folks might be surprised if they understood what they saw, although some sort of spin would be likely. Or not.
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I agree. Without adjustable powered subwoofers (mine have 11-band EQ, overall attenuation and adjustable Q curve), it is very challenging to lay down a firm and even foundation of bass for the house of music to be built on. I personally was never able to get close sonically before powered subwoofers with some of the anomalies of my listening room, even with some very fine speakers.

Ken
 
Dear Music Fiend. With all due respect, and coming from a person who does not appreciate subwoofers(at all), in my 50+ years in this hobby, I have never heard subs add air to a presentation. But that’s just me......Are subwoofers bad for music? I vote “YES”.
 
Joseph R. said:
Dear Music Fiend. With all due respect, and coming from a person who does not appreciate subwoofers(at all), in my 50+ years in this hobby, I have never heard subs add air to a presentation. But that’s just me......Are subwoofers bad for music? I vote “YES”.
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Dear Joe,

Should you have the chance, try and listen to this album with a pair of well integrated subs and without the subs.

http://www.2l.no/pages/album/106.html

The subs don't add air to the recording. The air was already present in the recording, of course. The subs simply help a lot to reproduce the Cathedral's atmosphere making it almost possible to hear the air.

Hope this helps!
 
I'll vote "no"

Subs are not bad for music. Bad sub integration is Bad for music. Just like Bad setup is Bad for music.

Properly done they are great!

Does somebody need subs for a great Music system - of course not. Just like you don't need a $10,000+ amp to have a great music system.

When you want the best sound available - a great bass sub-system is mandatory. Speaker manufactures go to great lengths and expense to have their top of their line speakers have a great bass sub-system. Duh!!! They might or might not use what they call a sub - but the reality is the same - they want the best bass down as far as they can - the best want down to at least 15 hz.
 
Music Fiend said:
Dear Joe,

Should you have the chance, try and listen to this album with a pair of well integrated subs and without the subs.

http://www.2l.no/pages/album/106.html

The subs don't add air to the recording. The air was already present in the recording, of course. The subs simply help a lot to reproduce the Cathedral's atmosphere making it almost possible to hear the air.

Hope this helps!
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I am familiar with this recording, and I certainly understand how deep dynamic bass brings out realism. But I don’t think you need a subwoofer to achieve it. I have heard many a well designed loudspeaker accomplish the same thing. I think it is always best for the bass (like every other frequency bandwidth) to be integral to the design. Not an afterthought. For me, bass is best when you don’t notice it.When it is simply a part of the overall musical experience.

Drawing on my experiences and observations, mixing amplifier types, utilizing equalizers, depending on DSP, room correction algorithms, adding additional volume pots, for the bass bandwidth only, destroys any possibility of seemlessness. And then the user must find the best location in relation to the mains and the room acoustics. Like plopping a supertweeter on a speaker top, if it sounds seemless to you, go for it. I cast no aspersions. But for my money, subwoofers are not worth the effort.

Off soapbox for good. Sorry for the rant.
 
I keep hearing about well integrated subs. Someday I might actually hear someone's system where they aren't obvious.
 
Took me well over a year to properly integrate my Rel B3 with Dyn C1's. What I mean by properly is 2 parts - the sub shouldn't lead or lag the main speakers. Second is to get the level right so they seamlessly blend in. Once you've accomplished that you won't know there is the sub in the room.

But that said I personally could never get the B3 to blend in properly with Raidho D1's. The D2 and D2.1's were no problem. Didn't even bother with the D3.1's. I think the problem with the D1's was a higher crossover point which IMO bled too much into the mids and like Mike said slowed down the sound. Sound real good with the D2/D2.1's but at a much lower crossover point which didn't bleed into the mids. I only noticed there were just a few tracks where the sub came through so I never really used it and traded it in when I got the D3'1.s.

For that reason my vote is it just depends.
 
Mike said:
I’ve heard several Magico setups with JL Audio subs and those were always awesome and wicked fast. JL Audio, like Magico and others have superb room integration technology.
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Totally agree, Mike. My Reference 3A Reflector monitors are super fast like Magico, and my JL Audio 112v2 subs integrate seamlessly. Moreover, I cross over quite high (60 Hz) with shallow slope (12 dB/octave), and while some cello recordings are handled well by the monitors alone, others greatly benefit from addition of the sub. If your subs can add bottom to the cello sound while not smearing out the rapid micro-oscillations on the bowing sounds -- now that's *wicked* fast. The coherence and accuracy of the resulting sound as a whole is pretty amazing. No smearing of mids by the subs on anything else either.

And as you say, the room integration technology with microphone measurement of peaks/valleys at listening position and digitally controlled compensation is superb.
 
still-one said:
I keep hearing about well integrated subs. Someday I might actually hear someone's system where they aren't obvious.
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Hi Jim,

My dual 12-inch powered subwoofers are seamless to my ears, but then again, they are built into my speakers. The Vandersteen Sub 9 external subwoofers, used in conjunction with the Vandersteen 7 Mk2's, are also seamless to my ears, but there is a gradual hand-off from the built-in subwoofers to the Sub 9's. This significantly improves cohesiveness, enabling the Sub 9's to be placed further away from the Vandy 7 Mk2's without making them stand out.

Ken
 
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