Network switch, FMC, cable upgrades worthwhile when router can't be co-located?

Do you have coaxial cable coming in to you home? Can you get that directly into your audio equipment location.
If so, look at an ActionTec ECB2500C Bonded MoCA 2.0 Coax to Ethernet adapter.

I only had coax that runs directly from the LNT box on the outside of the house. I really didn't want to convert the signal in the Frontier Router and run the signal via ethernet to my room.

The ActionTec is connected to a modified NetGear network switch that is local to my music room equipment.

This is not to say that when I use my iPad to control my music the router is not involved with the task. Just a direct connection between storage and player exists through the local switch.

If I didn't understand your issue, sorry.
 
One of the best dedicated for audio switch - Silent Angel Bonn N8



Bonn_N8-0042.jpg

Audiomica_Ethernet-0007a.jpg

Wireworld_Cardas-0024.jpg


On market You can find licensed version of Bonn8 interiors - Omnia SW-8 produced by NuPrime (aluminum chassis and low noise power supply).
 
I suggest listening and after that make conclusions, not before or just after lecture of someone else "poem". And remember - "Writing about Music Is like Dancing about Architecture" ;-)

 
As with many discussions around this topic (digital content streaming), there is conflicting info here.

I've spent the last year researching, testing and implementing a robust "streaming" digital front end. By streaming I'm referring to digital music files resident on a hard drive attached to a music server or content provided via a streaming service, e.g. Qobuz, Tidal, etc.

The result and attendant conclusions I've come to is: EVERYTHING matters and is audible.

1) It's not just 1s and 0s. The data is transmitted as an analog square wave voltage and is as just such susceptible to the impacts of noise, e.g. RF and EMI, as any other analog signal from a music source (e.g. phono stage, tape deck, disc player, etc., etc.)

2) Digital sources, while the data is in a "fully digital" domain (i.e., there not yet been an D/A conversion) is also particularly susceptible to ground plane noise, common mode noise, clock phase noise, and jitter.

3) Digital sources and "data in the fully digital domain" are also particularly susceptible to high-source impedance leakage current. This leakage current is very hard to detect and test for, and requires bespoke test equipment. It was only discovered in Q4, 2017. The problem with high-source impedance leakage current is that has a significant impact on clock phase noise, which is audible.

The bottom line here is that virtually everything in the digital streaming domain e.g. NAS, fiber media convertors, Ethernet switches, routers, music servers, and their power supplies and cables have an impact on the audio quality of playback from a digital streaming "front end". This includes USB cables, copper Ethernet cables, and the power supplies for these devices and their AC power cords.

Other sources of problems are switch-mode power supplies, the cheap-assed clocks in "consumer-grade" digital devices (e.g. router, switches, and FMCs, etc), and Ethernet cables.

Optical fiber has a big advantage over copper Ethernet for longer runs as it will not pass high-source impedance leakage current. More on the next post.

More later where I will provide some references for review and component and cable recommendations.

Meantime, please read this white paper by John Swenson: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0660/6121/files/UpTone-J.Swenson_EtherREGEN_white_paper.pdf?v=1583429386
 
Puma Cat said:
As with many discussions around this topic (digital content streaming), there is conflicting info here.

I've spent the last year researching, testing and implementing a robust "streaming" digital front end. By streaming I'm referring to digital music files resident on a hard drive attached to a music server or content provided via a streaming service, e.g. Qobuz, Tidal, etc.

The result and attendant conclusions I've come to is: EVERYTHING matters and is audible.

1) It's not just 1s and 0s. The data is transmitted as an analog square wave voltage and is as just such susceptible to the impacts of noise, e.g. RF and EMI, as any other analog signal from a music source (e.g. phono stage, tape deck, disc player, etc., etc.)

2) Digital sources, while the data is in a "fully digital" domain (i.e., there not yet been an D/A conversion) is also particularly susceptible to ground plane noise, common mode noise, clock phase noise, and jitter.

3) Digital sources and "data in the fully digital domain" are also particularly susceptible to high-source impedance leakage current. This leakage current is very hard to detect and test for, and requires bespoke test equipment. It was only discovered in Q4, 2017. The problem with high-source impedance leakage current is that has a significant impact on clock phase noise, which is audible.

The bottom line here is that virtually everything in the digital streaming domain e.g. NAS, fiber media convertors, Ethernet switches, routers, music servers, and their power supplies and cables have an impact on the audio quality of playback from a digital streaming "front end". This includes USB cables, copper Ethernet cables, and the power supplies for these devices and their AC power cords.

Other sources of problems are switch-mode power supplies, the cheap-assed clocks in "consumer-grade" digital devices (e.g. router, switches, and FMCs, etc), and Ethernet cables.

Optical fiber has a big advantage over copper Ethernet for longer runs as it will not pass high-source impedance leakage current. More on the next post.

More later where I will provide some references for review and component and cable recommendations.

Meantime, please read this white paper by John Swenson: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0660/6121/files/UpTone-J.Swenson_EtherREGEN_white_paper.pdf?v=1583429386
Click to expand...

Care to share the components that make up your system?
 
My two cents:


The best switch is NO SWITCH. And a CD/SACD playing the same album will still beat all this networking/streaming stuff all day long and let’s not talk vinyl. I’ve run these test many many times.

If you have a dedicated listening space and run a Cat6 (or better) cable from the router to that room, then you don’t need a switch.

Instead of all of these gizmo’s, run two runs from the router - one for your computer/home theater crap or whatever you need in the same room as your audio system and one for your audio.

We are really over complicating this situation. Information Technology IS MY BACKGROUND. 25 years.

Ethernet filters like the Gigafoil can help filter out noise on the line coming from the PSU of the router/other devices on the network. And if you want to convert Ethernet to Fiber, fine. I’ve done it. The sound is different, but better?

YMMV.
 
Mike said:
My two cents:


The best switch is NO SWITCH. And a CD/SACD playing the same album will still beat all this networking/streaming stuff all day long and let’s not talk vinyl. I’ve run these test many many times.

If you have a dedicated listening space and run a Cat6 (or better) cable from the router to that room, then you don’t need a switch.

Instead of all of these gizmo’s, run two runs from the router - one for your computer/home theater crap or whatever you need in the same room as your audio system and one for your audio.

We are really over complicating this situation. Information Technology IS MY BACKGROUND. 25 years.

Ethernet filters like the Gigafoil can help filter out noise on the line coming from the PSU of the router/other devices on the network. And if you want to convert Ethernet to Fiber, fine. I’ve done it. The sound is different, but better?

YMMV.
Click to expand...

Well, of course the best switch is no switch. Less components in any reproduction chain will improve overall performance. If we wanted to get "wild and crazy" we could all use batteries to power our components, too, and obviate the need for AC power distributors. But, that's not practical for many, and neither is not having the functionality and flexibility a switch provides.

The facts are that different customers have different needs and therefore, different requirements. And guess what? Every customers needs/requirements are as VALID as anyone else's requirements. Solution providers (i.e., dealers/retailer) don't get to dictate or mandate customer requirements, customers do. Its up to solution providers to provide QUALITY and VALUE by best meeting their customer needs. This is basic VOC 101 (Voice of the Customer).

For many customers, they prefer, want, and value the flexibility of a digital streaming front end. Personally, I have virtually no desire whatsoever to go back to flippin' CDs into a player when I can sit back and pull up content in Roon, from my 4TB music library or from Qobuz, as well as read the metadata that is available, or use Radio mode to discover new content. So, for some customers, like me, they may well require an Ethernet switch or fiber media convertors.
 
Puma Cat said:
Well, of course the best switch is no switch. Less components in any reproduction chain will improve overall performance. If we wanted to get "wild and crazy" we could all use batteries to power our components, too, and obviate the need for AC power distributors. But, that's not practical for many, and neither is not having the functionality and flexibility a switch provides.

The facts are that different customers have different needs and therefore, different requirements. And guess what? Every customers needs/requirements are as VALID as anyone else's requirements. Solution providers don't get to dictate or mandate customer requirements, customers do. Its up to solution providers to provide QUALITY and VALUE by best meeting customer needs. This is basic VOC 101 (Voice of the Customer; I used teach and lead technical product design teams in VOC).


For many customers that have the needs/requirements for a digital streaming front end, in their particular applications and systems, they require an Ethernet switch. Some require fiber media convetors as well.
Click to expand...

When people are buying these items who don’t need them, that’s the problem. I have heard from so many customers with a single run from their router to their listening room and they are all in a big flap about these audiophile switches they keep hearing about. I have to keep telling them: the best switch is no switch!! That’s the little tidbit of information all these part-time experts leave out.

NONE mention: if you don’t need a switch, don’t use one and NONE mention the comparison vs the actual CD using the same DAC and
NONE mention simply running two lines from the router.

If in a worse case scenario, you can’t make another Ethernet run, then a switch is required. I would recommend the QNAP, this model or similar: https://www.qnap.com/en-us/product/qsw-1208-8c if they want a high end quality spec, quality built switch.

I’m not a fan of this forum, but in this case they are bang on the money, and they have done many similar reviews of “audiophile switches”:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...el-bonn-n8-audio-grade-ethernet-switch.12360/

At the end of the day, in many cases, this stuff gets many people lost in a quagmire of confusion. Less is more.

Again, if people are hearing big differences with switches, that’s fantastic. All the power to them. My point is simple: I need to be sure to communicate that no switch is the best switch and offer an option of running two lines from the router. That’s all I’m saying.

Again, YMMV.
 
Mike said:
When people are buying these items who don’t need them, that’s the problem. I have heard from so many customers with a single run from their router to their listening room and they are all in a big flap about these audiophile switches they keep hearing about. I have to keep telling them: the best switch is no switch!! That’s the little tidbit of information all these part-time experts leave out.

NONE mention: if you don’t need a switch, don’t use one and NONE mention the comparison vs the actual CD using the same DAC and
NONE mention simply running two lines from the router.

If in a worse case scenario, you can’t make another Ethernet run, then a switch is required. I would recommend the QNAP, this model or similar: https://www.qnap.com/en-us/product/qsw-1208-8c if they want a high end quality spec, quality built switch.

I’m not a fan of this forum, but in this case they are bang on the money, and they have done many similar reviews of “audiophile switches”:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...el-bonn-n8-audio-grade-ethernet-switch.12360/

At the end of the day, in many cases, this stuff gets many people lost in a quagmire of confusion. Less is more.

Again, if people are hearing big differences with switches, that’s fantastic. All the power to them. My point is simple: I need to be sure to communicate that no switch is the best switch and offer an option of running two lines from the router. That’s all I’m saying.

Again, YMMV.
Click to expand...

The problem with the QNAP switch is high-source impedance leakage current causing phase noise, particularly if it is being powered with a SMPS adapter.It also has cheap clocks, and noisy PHYs and flip-flops. For $90 more, one can buy the Uptone EtherREGEN that was designed by a professional Ethernet-systems engineer to circumvent the problems that the "IT industry" switches have.

The problem with the Audioscience review guys is they don't even know what high-source impedance leakage current is, the impact it has on phase noise, let alone how to measure its impact.
 
SoundRebels said:
One of the best dedicated for audio switch - Silent Angel Bonn N8



Bonn_N8-0042.jpg

Audiomica_Ethernet-0007a.jpg

Wireworld_Cardas-0024.jpg


On market You can find licensed version of Bonn8 interiors - Omnia SW-8 produced by NuPrime (aluminum chassis and low noise power supply).
Click to expand...

Yes, that's a good Ethernet switch; its not quite as expensive but also not quite as good as the Uptone Audio EtherREGEN, but it is better than an IT-industry switch. If you live in the EU, it's a good choice if its too much hassle to purchase the Uptone Audio EtherREGEN. Just be sure to use a good clean linear power supply with it instead of a switch-mode power supply.
 
Puma Cat said:
The problem with the QNAP switch is high-source impedance leakage current causing phase noise, particularly if it is being powered with a SMPS adapter.It also has cheap clocks, and noisy PHYs and flip-flops. For $90 more, one can buy the Uptone EtherREGEN that was designed by a professional Ethernet-systems engineer to circumvent the problems that the "IT industry" switches have.

The problem with the Audioscience review guys is they don't even know what high-source impedance leakage current is, the impact it has on phase noise, let alone how to measure its impact.
Click to expand...

If running another run from router is not an option and you need a switch, then someone would also want a better PSU for the Uptone.

I guess you saw this (I know we are not fans), but...

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../uptone-audio-etherregen-switch-review.10232/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Puma Cat said:
The problem with the QNAP switch is high-source impedance leakage current causing phase noise, particularly if it is being powered with a SMPS adapter.It also has cheap clocks, and noisy PHYs and flip-flops. For $90 more, one can buy the Uptone EtherREGEN that was designed by a professional Ethernet-systems engineer to circumvent the problems that the "IT industry" switches have.

The problem with the Audioscience review guys is they don't even know what high-source impedance leakage current is, the impact it has on phase noise, let alone how to measure its impact.
Click to expand...


I do think they (ASR) make a compelling argument that the place to measure the impact, or not, of an audiophile switch is at the DAC output. But then the argument comes down to-- are they measuring the right things at the DAC output? I'm not convinced yet on either side of this argument.
 
Mike said:
My two cents:


The best switch is NO SWITCH. And a CD/SACD playing the same album will still beat all this networking/streaming stuff all day long and let’s not talk vinyl. I’ve run these test many many times.

YMMV.
Click to expand...

The creators of the audiophile switches will argue that their switch is better than no switch because it filters noise and other digital gremlins that are there independent of a switch.

On whether cd's playing the same album will be better than streaming: I don't have a cd player, so I haven't done direct comparison. But I have read others say that a highly optimized streaming set up (hard drive and Qobuz/Tidal) will equal or better cd playback. (I believe Mike Lavigne came to that conclusion? Hopefully I have that right!)
 
Willco said:
The creators of the audiophile switches will argue that their switch is better than no switch because it filters noise and other digital gremlins that are there independent of a switch.

On whether cd's playing the same album will be better than streaming: I don't have a cd player, so I haven't done direct comparison. But I have read others say that a highly optimized streaming set up (hard drive and Qobuz/Tidal) will equal or better cd playback. (I believe Mike Lavigne came to that conclusion? Hopefully I have that right!)
Click to expand...

That last part is wishful thinking, if we are comparing apples to apples. It’s frankly not close. I’ve done numerous comparisons. The CD vs Tidal/QoBuz using the same DAC, was not close.
 
My efforts with switches, power supplies and grounding resulted in a sound second to none, the die hard analog guys were one over, it was clearly evident to them.

I’m am with Mike relative to less is more but in my case it was opposite.

Before my weekend painting efforts I am about to move all my digital over to a new circuit on a new sub panel we put in (thanks KingRex, more on that later) and see if better circuit cabling, a shortened run, and removing the AQ Vox SE switch that is chassis grounded will improve sound quality - I think it will or I wouldn’t try doing it.

Note: Everything is well cabled with Linear Power Supplies, ethernet cables, and isolation and created a digital front end thread on here somewhere.

Currently:

Modem > AQ Diamond > AQVox SE > Belkin 45’ > etherREGEN > AQ Diamond > Gigafoil > AQ Diamond > Aurender

Proposed:

Running coaxial in place of Belkin to move closer to Audio Room.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
UltraFast69 said:
My efforts with switches, power supplies and grounding resulted in a sound second to none, the die hard analog guys were one over, it was clearly evident to them.

I’m am with Mike relative to less is more but in my case it was opposite.

Before my weekend painting efforts I am about to move all my digital over to a new circuit on a new sub panel we put in (thanks KingRex, more on that later) and see if better circuit cabling, a shortened run, and removing the AQ Vox SE switch that is chassis grounded will improve sound quality - I think it will or I wouldn’t try doing it.

Note: Everything is well cabled with Linear Power Supplies, ethernet cables, and isolation and created a digital front end thread on here somewhere.

Currently:

Modem > AQ Diamond > AQVox SE > Belkin 45’ > etherREGEN > AQ Diamond > Gigafoil > AQ Diamond > Aurender

Proposed:

Running coaxial in place of Belkin to move closer to Audio Room.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Click to expand...

Interesting. Would you then have your modem close/in your listening room?

One other question: have you tried an Aurender ACS10? I find the dedicated network filter in the ACS10 to be excellent. Then you plug your N10 into the dedicated filter on the ACS10 via Ethernet.

I removed my GigaFoil once I got the ACS10. AND, it certainly sounds better than my NAS.
 
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