Why no turntable?

I'm finding digital and analog are $ to $. There is no at this point. Source material is going to differentiate your preferences. And to your point Ed, people leave so much locked in the box with digital. And they leave so much improperly set up with vinyl.
 
UltraFast69 said:
There’s merit in what you say, I get it.

Digital can, and I say “can” be good, heck great, but it takes a series of steps to really make it shine, many highlighted in your statement.

Guys I know either think these steps are gimmicky or ignore it in whole or part, leaving SQ locked in a box and the sad part it does not take a lot of cash to do.

Conversely analog not done right against a more advanced digital system will highlight the weakness of the analog setup, and believe it starts with the cartridge, arm then table.

Despite all that the most important aspect is the source, and the median which it’s recorded and engineered.

Lots of variables in all this to arrive at a great sound but the constants of speaker, room, power are the foundation.


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Another good point related to a plain-Jane price comparison: It really depends on what is up- and downstream. While it’s different things that affect the quality of digital and analog, there are also common factors.

Component - both, but analog has more moving parts

Media quality - both, maybe analog even more so

Power supply - both, maybe digital even more, as it also applies to signal transport (although I also have a 4K power supply unit for my turntable, which makes a huge difference)

Grounding - both, equally for power, signal and components

Signal conversion - both, complex in either case, D/A conversion, signal processing, filters, upsampling, bit rates and formats vs intricacies of groove tracking, azimuth, vertical angle, cart load, alignment, and mV level amplification

Cables - both, different types of cables going into a DAC and different types of cables in the TT setup

Isolation - both, but analog is more sensitive to vibrations, as this needs to be addressed relative to component, placement, tracking, motor, power supply, and even media

System matching - both, if components do not harmonize the system will never yield a top performance

Acoustics - both, usually the most neglected factor, a little of room acoustic treatment is often equivalent to doubling your system investment

Ergo: A 10K vinyl system can easily beat a 20K digital system, when basics are not taken care of properly. And exactly the same applies vice versa. Plain component investment does not get you very far in any case.

The trouble is, the weakest link principle applies: everything can be top notch, but if only one key element is suboptimal the entire setup suffers.


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I thought I had a good component stand when I installed it my cd’s quit skipping on low notes, but my latest speakers have made streaming the most reliable way to listen. I returned to lp after initially being shocked at how thin and lifeless cd playback was, but now I enjoy streaming and don’t feel a need to change, besides rererereplacing my library I like not having to clean the disc either cd or lp and I’ll never miss jumping tracks on bass notes that are so low I can’t hear them anyhow. A turntable owner did tell me new records are more robust tho’.
 
Finally was able to start listening to the new Rega table (pre-Amp Finally arrived from Poland). Very impressed with it so far. I love the look and feel of the table. I think it allows the Black cartridge to really strut its stuff!
 
Now that I have had the upgraded table in place for a bit thought I might right up a comparison between analog and digital (or course for my gear level :)).

I feel that my digital and analog are at fairly similar levels now, give or take. I enjoy both but certainly for different reasons. I think digital might be slightly better over all but both are good.

Digital is a ton more convenient. No fuss gorgeous black backgrounds. Listen non-stop to entire albums, switch to another album, no big deal. Great sounding, dynamic, quite.

Analog is a lot more fuss, but in some ways also fun. Taking the album out of the plastic cover (yes I store every album that way), then removing it from the cover then from the protective sleeve.... of course don't touch anything but edge and for God sake don't drop it. But the covers and include material can be fun. Clean the stylus, clean the record. The best are very quite, only a little noise, the worse are noisy as hell. Of course all have also gone through the cleaning machine prior to their first playing. Sound wise analog at it's best is wonderful, at it's not so best it is not as good.

The biggest take away is they both offer pros and cons. I find that I lean towards buying better albums, analog masters in 45 rpm, etc. This is because at its absolute best I will give analog an advantage, but for the most part digital has the edge because software can make most anything approach it's best. Both are very dependent on the media. A great record is amazing... a great digital recording is great also :). And on the flip side a bad recording or album is bad. Both good and bad are more pronounced with analog.
 
thanks randy -- great to get an analog comparison to the t+a dac8 dsd. sounds like with good media the rp8 + 2m black and the simAudio phono is "equal but different" in your system.

i have been trying to triangulate this exact point for my system for quite some time... great data point!!
 
I do think similar levels. The Rega, Ortofon, SimAudio, Record Doctor are similar priced to the DAC 8 DSD. Yes, the computer server and software is a bit more of an expense, but with analog there is record cleaners, brushes for the cleaning machine, stylus cleaners (multi kinds), outer record sleeves, archival quality inner sleeves, fluids, more fluids :)... record racks... all told, very similar pricing... good albums cost more, but digital makes it more convenient so you get more... so the way I look at it when it is all said and done it is very similar in over all costs.
 
Randy Myers said:
I do think similar levels. The Rega, Ortofon, SimAudio, Record Doctor are similar priced to the DAC 8 DSD. Yes, the computer server and software is a bit more of an expense, but with analog there is record cleaners, brushes for the cleaning machine, stylus cleaners (multi kinds), outer record sleeves, archival quality inner sleeves, fluids, more fluids :)... record racks... all told, very similar pricing... good albums cost more, but digital makes it more convenient so you get more... so the way I look at it when it is all said and done it is very similar in over all costs.
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Im surprised there is not a clearer separation, I’m wondering if you need to play with the turntable adjustments.

It’s not about analog or digital, both have their place and can be very good, but it’s all the ancillary support to bring out the best of each.


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UltraFast69 said:
Im surprised there is not a clearer separation, I’m wondering if you need to play with the turntable adjustments.

It’s not about analog or digital, both have their place and can be very good, but it’s all the ancillary support to bring out the best of each.


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I was thinking just the opposite, I'm surprised the digital doesn't trounce the analog. That DAC is quite good.
 
new modestly priced tt packages can still really shine with better pressings, but more ordinary pressings require an order of magnitude higher level of tt to pull away from similar priced digital. it is a matter of so many parts of the vinyl front end, including set-up, which are variables. if you take those same dollars, and get the right vintage tt gear, really well set-up, that can reach that next level too.

the point is to keep working at the vinyl, try to upgrade here and there, and you will find that next level. so it's not just dollars, but also learning over time what works best.

it is all about the media; and what happens is that tt performance simply keeps getting better and better as you push things; digital runs into a ceiling. it's a high ceiling......but a ceiling none-the-less. vinyl so far does not reach that ceiling ever........in my experience.
 
That is pretty much what I have found. Really good pressings and recordings shine.... I would say the best.... but other than the top notch records the digital can hold its own if not come out on top. That is why I have been concentrating on purchasing higher level albums! The bottom line is I enjoy both for different reasons. I find I have been listening to vinyl the most lately; probably because it is new to me. I am really enjoying the Rega table, but I am still getting used to the different aspects of vinyl.

One other thing I have found that I enjoy is I can find some of my old favorites in vinyl that are not available in any form of digital.
 
sb6 said:
I was thinking just the opposite, I'm surprised the digital doesn't trounce the analog. That DAC is quite good.
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If you truly feel that way, it means you have never heard what analog is capable of.
 
Mike said:
I’m curious, why don’t more audiophiles at least consider a basic vinyl rig? I’ve heard the regular reasons: too much care and feeding, I sold all my records, I’m not buying anymore vinyl, it’s too much hassle. But I personally don’t find that to be the case.

Wouldn’t having a turntable in addition to a great digital setup be nice?

The great thing about a turntable is that a great turntable today will be a great turntable in 10 or 20 years from now. Wouldn’t that be a good investment?



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Mark - your recent purchase is proof of my last comment which started this whole thread.

:)

Mike
 
That table does look awesome Mark!

I am having fun enjoying the new table, and of course I still enjoy digital. Not enough hours to listen, especially with Cheryal at home all the time. :) Honestly she is great about it but I do try to spend time with her also... so I am constantly in a debate... do I go down stairs to be with Cheryal or spin another album :D.

(especially when I have to go to the office every day and am very tired when I get home)
 
mep said:
If you truly feel that way, it means you have never heard what analog is capable of.
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I've heard what analog and digital are capable of, believe me. My friend has the Caliburn and it's beautiful sounding. And IME listening to many systems that include digital and analog, digital wins when the source budget for each <=~$15K. Here's one data point - A friend with quite a good system had folks over and they compared a digital version to the record. Everyone commented that "The record sound better". I then made them aware that that's what happens when your cartridge alone costs more than your complete digital front end. And that's what I observe in most scenarios - Folks spend a fraction on their digital versus analog and then ignorantly state, analog is better. Spend equal $ on both up to $15K and report back. In most cases with most recordings with a fairly new digital front end, the digital will win in terms of sonics IME.
 
sb6 said:
I've heard what analog and digital are capable of, believe me. My friend has the Caliburn and it's beautiful sounding. And IME listening to many systems that include digital and analog, digital wins when the source budget for each <=~$15K. Here's one data point - A friend with quite a good system had folks over and they compared a digital version to the record. Everyone commented that "The record sound better". I then made them aware that that's what happens when your cartridge alone costs more than your complete digital front end. And that's what I observe in most scenarios - Folks spend a fraction on their digital versus analog and then ignorantly state, analog is better. Spend equal $ on both up to $15K and report back. In most cases with most recordings with a fairly new digital front end, the digital will win in terms of sonics IME.
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I appreciate you bringing some clarity to what appeared to be a blanket statement. So now you are referring to people having $15k to spend on a digital or analog system and you are saying the digital system at $15k will sound better to you.
 
Living with a turntable and actually using it also gives you another point of reference for sound. As I survey what some customers like and what they don’t like, I can’t help but notice a trend. Those who have not ever lived with vinyl/tape or not lived with it for a very long time, have a different version of a reference sound for digital than those with vinyl/tape in their systems. They tend to steer towards more artificial sounds: hyper detailed, even bright, thin, etched, processed and frankly, without even knowing it. They keep looking for more and more “detail” and acquaint that with their reference. This DAC has more “detail”, so it must be better. Folks who have a turntable/tape, tend towards more organic, full, natural sound and are not looking for hyper detail. I can’t help but wonder if some of the bad digital out there is retraining our ears on what is good sound. It’s funny, even some of the DAC’s that built their reputation on R2R have switched over to chips to get more “detail”. Not good. Not natural.
 
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