Why no turntable?

[aKnyght]

given the performance being seen of the u-turn TT + arm in quite nice systems, i does at least beg the question of wether it makes sense to allocate proportionally more of the total analog expenditure towards the cartridge and phono-pre? in other words, buy a high quality "entry level" TT and then up the game for a higher end cartridge and phono-pre.

more generically: given the performance being seen in "entry level" TTs in great systems, what percentage of the total analog expenditure would you allocate to the TT, cartridge and phono-pre?

just wondering

 

[Mike]

given the performance being seen of the u-turn TT + arm in quite nice systems, i does at least beg the question of wether it makes sense to allocate proportionally more of the total analog expenditure towards the cartridge and phono-pre? in other words, buy a high quality "entry level" TT and then up the game for a higher end cartridge and phono-pre.

more generically: given the performance being seen in "entry level" TTs in great systems, what percentage of the total analog expenditure would you allocate to the TT, cartridge and phono-pre?

just wondering

$15K or less.

VPI Prime Signature ($6500)
Ortofon Cadenza Black ($2800)
Mid Priced Phonostage ($3000-$6000). Luxman Phono.
Nice Phono Cable ($1000)
You could add a VPI ADS, but frankly, I think the speed stability of the VPI motor is excellent (we tested it). It does make switching from 33 to 45 a little easier.
A nice ISOAcoustics Turntable Platform.

 

[Randy Myers]

Same as others are saying, my digital will remain my primary source, but I am enjoying playing around with vinyl. Very nostalgic for me.

A few upgrades are warranted with the U-Turn because they make it so the table can appreciate these. To me it has been better cables (I already had them so why not), a record clam (seems to work and easy on the motor), record cleaning machine (no matter what level of table the vinyl needs to be cared for), Blue stylus (same cartridge but supposed to be a nice improvement that is easily appreciated on the U-Turn), phono pre (the one that come with it is fine but I can experiment).

The bottom line is the table does the basics very well. It is in our nature to improve where we can, however I doubt I will go any higher for a good long while, if ever. This table is a true audio bargain! Not the same level but similar to how I feel about my pre-amplifier, music server, speakers, and DAC.

 

[bluegrassphile]

With us it simply came down to storage and room. We live in a small house and were storing our vinyl records in our only walk in closet. We really needed that room for clothes storage. There was just nowhere else to put the boxes of vinyl albums.

I checked the internet and the vinyl albums weren't worth much at the time (20 or so years ago). Plus, they were so heavy that any profit would have been spent for shipping. I knew I would regret it but I gave them away to a friend. Yes, gave them away! I still regret it to this day. But I don't have to hear complaints about how much room the 16 boxes of albums were taking up. Also, at that time vinyl records and turntables were going the way of the Dodo bird.

CDs were rapidly taking over, with vinyl records and turntables just as rapidly disappearing. I wouldn't mind having a TT now and some vinyl records but I'm just not sure I want to go down that path again. The expense alone is a deterrent. A high quality TT is pricey these days and the cost of good quality cartridges, IMHO, is obscene. So, I'll probably just stick with streaming. I also have about 2000 CDs (ripped to iTunes, WAV) stored in a chest of drawers and on a couple racks. They might be the next to go, I'm not sure yet. I'll wait and see where streaming and my ripped CDs take me. I'll also be getting Roon with my new system and I eventually might not have any need for CD storage (my wife would love that). Like I said, I'll just wait and see. The changes in streaming are coming fast and furious.

 

[Kingrex]

Mike, i think the question is, would a uturn owner see a real benefit adding a $1500 cartridge and $4000 phono pre. Ultrafast told me Fremmer said don't get a better cartridge than the table.

 

[Mike]

Mike, i think the question is, would a uturn owner see a real benefit adding a $1500 cartridge and $4000 phono pre. Ultrafast told me Fremmer said don't get a better cartridge than the table.

Start with the table first. In the store, we have three Avid turntables (good, better, best) with the same arm, same cart, going to the same Phonostage (Luxman EQ500) on the same platforms (Critical Mass Maxxum), so we can show people the sonic benefits of the table alone. Many new to analog think “the table doesn’t matter, it’s all about the cartridge”. Linn dispelled that myth in the 80’s.


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[UltraFast69]

given the performance being seen of the u-turn TT + arm in quite nice systems, i does at least beg the question of wether it makes sense to allocate proportionally more of the total analog expenditure towards the cartridge and phono-pre? in other words, buy a high quality "entry level" TT and then up the game for a higher end cartridge and phono-pre.

more generically: given the performance being seen in "entry level" TTs in great systems, what percentage of the total analog expenditure would you allocate to the TT, cartridge and phono-pre?

just wondering

Budget percentages are tricky.

You don’t want to exceed your system unless your committed for other changes, like speakers that should IMO command the highest allocation.

Anyone that is considering Analog with little to no experience and a budget should seriously consider an entry level turn table and then play with it as you’ll learn what cartridges do, a good process on how to care for and play records and then move up the line to cables and maybe a separate phono in time.

There’s a lot of neat stuff out there that won’t break the bank and get you spinning records starting from $179.00 with improvements up to approx $2000.00.

If your “all in” out the gate, or upgrading, I think an overall budget of 15% - 20% retail in a reference system is a safe position.


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[Devg]

$15K or less.

VPI Prime Signature ($6500)
Ortofon Cadenza Black ($2800)
Mid Priced Phonostage ($3000-$6000). Luxman Phono.
Nice Phono Cable ($1000)
You could add a VPI ADS, but frankly, I think the speed stability of the VPI motor is excellent (we tested it). It does make switching from 33 to 45 a little easier.
A nice ISOAcoustics Turntable Platform.

Mike, can you also tell what is a comparable digital setup to this ? If one has a budget of $5k, what are the options ?

 

[Al M.]

That "special sauce" might be definable. A very interesting read from a Caltech educated biophysicist and neuroscientist...

https://www.fairobserver.com/more/s...ital-audio-science-news-william-softky-39078/

Thanks for the link. The article is badly written in terms of scientific accuracy. The author obfuscates well into, or even beyond, the middle of the article uncompressed with compressed digital. Even right before discussing Shannon and Nyquist that ambiguity exists, subtly suggesting that these theorems have something to do with compression. Either the author is incompetent or manipulative. Neither of these options is appealing. Only in the last part of the article he draws a clear distinction between compressed and uncompressed.

Neil Young by the way views also CD digital as being compressed, which demonstrates his lack of technical understanding.

As for the microsecond thing, if location where an issue with digital, then the soundstage would be inferior. I simply don't hear that. I also question if in real world terms the resolution of a vinyl groove is sufficiently accurate to make the theoretical difference that the author claims.

In terms of emotion, and subtlety thereof, I get exactly the same experience from great Redbook CD digital as from great analog.

As for the general audio quality of digital vs analog, even just four years ago I would have agreed with the digital critics, even though I have been a digital only guy for three decades now. Yet with current CD playback quality, digital has bridged the divide to analog to my ears. And I am regularly exposed to top level vinyl playback in three friends' systems. I find my current CD playback to be sensational -- and highly satisfying, to the extent that I can stay glued to my system for hours on end. It's just addictive.

There is no "special sauce" to vinyl.

 

[Mike]

Mike, can you also tell what is a comparable digital setup to this ? If one has a budget of $5k, what are the options ?

$5k analog budget:

VPI Scout Prime - $2500
Ortofon 2M Bronze - $400
SimAudio 110LPV2 - $400
AudioQuest phono cable - $300

Spend the rest on records or get the nice ISOACOUSTICS TT platform.

Digital?

Aqua La Voce S3 - $4300 or Lumin T2 - $4500


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[Devg]

$5k analog budget:

VPI Scout Prime - $2500
Ortofon 2M Bronze - $400
SimAudio 110LPV2 - $400
AudioQuest phono cable - $300

Spend the rest on records or get the nice ISOACOUSTICS TT platform.

Digital?

Aqua La Voce S3 - $4300 or Lumin T2 - $4500


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Thanks Mike, that was helpful. What I meant earlier is the $15k turntable setup you listed earlier is comparable to what digital system ?

 

[Mike]

Thanks Mike, that was helpful. What I meant earlier is the $15k turntable setup you listed earlier is comparable to what digital system ?

I don’t spend a lot of time thinking about comparing a DAC to a turntable. To me, that’s like comparing a great motorcycle to a great car. But for $15k, I would do a MSB Discrete with Roon Renderer v2 module and the two PSU’s.


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[thase13]

QRe: Why no turntable?

Thanks for the link. The article is badly written in terms of scientific accuracy. The author obfuscates well into, or even beyond, the middle of the article uncompressed with compressed digital. Even right before discussing Shannon and Nyquist that ambiguity exists, subtly suggesting that these theorems have something to do with compression. Either the author is incompetent or manipulative. Neither of these options is appealing. Only in the last part of the article he draws a clear distinction between compressed and uncompressed.

Interesting interpretation. Rather than infer malicious motives, I read it as two distinct arguments, but I certainly see your point. He certainly seems to create an implied inequity in the positions of the musicians and the technologists with the musicians occupying the moral (but rhetorically indefensible) high ground and the technologists seemingly constrained by their dogma.

Neil Young by the way views also CD digital as being compressed, which demonstrates his lack of technical understanding.

This seems to support the author's argument. Despite Mr. Young's lack of technical understanding, he feels that there is something missing in the digital reproduction of his music. His inability to intellectually support this position shouldn't be an a priori negation of his intuition. Many artists see a reality that cannot be supported by empirical fact. Certainly, the Rouen Cathedral looks nothing like how Claude Monet depicted it, but the absence (or presence) of additional technical information doesn't diminish the effect on our senses.

As for the microsecond thing, if location where an issue with digital, then the soundstage would be inferior. I simply don't hear that. I also question if in real world terms the resolution of a vinyl groove is sufficiently accurate to make the theoretical difference that the author claims.

I don't think there necessarily has to be either a tangible or perceptible auditory response, but I am intrigued by the suggestion that the brain invokes deeper distinctions created by the biological differences of clusters of neurons simultaneously firing as receptors of a sound event vs. the (mis)/perceptions of the cognitive analysis of discrete changes in amplitudes.

In terms of emotion, and subtlety thereof, I get exactly the same experience from great Redbook CD digital as from great analog.

As for the general audio quality of digital vs analog, even just four years ago I would have agreed with the digital critics, even though I have been a digital only guy for three decades now. Yet with current CD playback quality, digital has bridged the divide to analog to my ears. And I am regularly exposed to top level vinyl playback in three friends' systems. I find my current CD playback to be sensational -- and highly satisfying, to the extent that I can stay glued to my system for hours on end. It's just addictive.

This is really all that matters, that you derive pleasure from the wonderful system that you've assembled. In this sense, the article is just a conversation piece.

There is no "special sauce" to vinyl.

And yet there are still those who feel that there is and therein lies the crux of the article. The dissonance seem to occur when we simply dismiss people who adopt this point of view because our own predispositions won't allow us to entertain the possibility that we might be missing something.

Great response. Thanks Al!

 

[Mike]

Re: QRe: Why no turntable?

The dissonance seem to occur when we simply dismiss people who adopt this point of view because our own predispositions won't allow us to entertain the possibility that we might be missing something.

Bingo!



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[Al M.]

Re: QRe: Why no turntable?

This is really all that matters, that you derive pleasure from the wonderful system that you've assembled. In this sense, the article is just a conversation piece.

Thank you. Your systems look wonderful too! I am a big Magico fan.

And yet there are still those who feel that there is and therein lies the crux of the article. The dissonance seem to occur when we simply dismiss people who adopt this point of view because our own predispositions won't allow us to entertain the possibility that we might be missing something.

In the end I think it is about the mastering of the recording, which mostly has little to do with the medium itself. There are many recordings that just sound better on vinyl, especially in pop/rock (while at the same time there are mediocre LP masterings and pressings as well). There are also a few jazz and classical recordings that I prefer on vinyl.

For example, Gidon Kremer's interpretation of Bach violin sonatas and partitas on Philips (1980, I think) sounds so much better on vinyl than on the 1990 CD release on that label. On the other hand, the also 1990 CD release on the same Philips label of Tchaikovsky first piano concerto and the violin concerto (Arrau, Accardo soloists/ Colin Davis cond.) sounds excellent to my ears. Maybe they didn't adjust the tape head correctly for the analog replay for the former release. Some of the early pop/rock CD releases also are rumoured to have lacked correction for Dolby A, which would explain some brightness. And then of course you have the loudness wars, a misuse of the capabilities of digital.

If I would spend more time with rock on my system I might be more inclined towards vinyl than l am now; with my diet of mainly classical and jazz, as well as more recent classical avantgarde and jazz avantgarde releases I am perfectly happy with digital.

 

[Kuoppis]

What? I thought you just got that?

Plans?


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Yes! Already on order.

The Viella is great, I had it for about two years. There’s now a new AMG version, but that one is not my cup of tea. So I went for something else.

I seem to be upgrading my vinyl more often than my digital.


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[Randy Myers]

I received the Record Doctor V yesterday. I have done about 10 albums so far. It does a fairly amazing job. It is not the most convenient to use in that it is manual to both spread the liquid and spin the album when it is being vacuumed. Using a bit of patience and it does a great job. Since I am not going to ever get into any type of cleaning to resell or any other such thing, for my use it is all I need. Some albums that had a ton of noise, including one used one that had ALOT of noise now play great with very little noise!

It will only get better with the MoFi brush that will be arriving today to replace the crappy one that comes with the cleaner!

I also ordered a Blue stylus. This should hold me for now ....

 

[Shadowfax]

 

[UltraFast69]

I received the Record Doctor V yesterday. I have done about 10 albums so far. It does a fairly amazing job. It is not the most convenient to use in that it is manual to both spread the liquid and spin the album when it is being vacuumed. Using a bit of patience and it does a great job. Since I am not going to ever get into any type of cleaning to resell or any other such thing, for my use it is all I need. Some albums that had a ton of noise, including one used one that had ALOT of noise now play great with very little noise!

It will only get better with the MoFi brush that will be arriving today to replace the crappy one that comes with the cleaner!

I also ordered a Blue stylus. This should hold me for now ....

Perfect!


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[Mike]

Hey Randy, I had one of these too! Next step is the VPI cleaner. Then save your pennies for a AudioDesk or ClearAudio Double Matrix and you’ll never look back.


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