Vinyl Cleaning: VPI + Audio Desk + Klaudio

Golucid

Golucid

Taking a break
Joined
Jan 10, 2015
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Yesterday [17 April 2015], I called Paul with Ultrasystems, the Audio Desk Systems USA distributor.

I had a short but sweet conversation about cleaning methods and he agrees that there is no single vinyl cleaning solution. My thought, yes ultrasonics are great, traditional methods are also very good and sometimes necessary. A complete cleaning approach?

For example, I told him that I was playing Pink Floyd the wall vinyl and there was this section that just wasn't playing well. I processed it through the VPI HW 27 Typhoon, played it... still a bit murky and then again, processed it through the Audio Desk, and Boom! Sweet spot. Flawless.

At the moment, my Klaudio is in the shop with the manufacture, so I couldn't give it a final clean through that system.

The nice thing about Paul. He seemed very agreeable that the use of all three systems is an ideal set up, if you can kick down the cash. He said, processing the final cleans after the VPI through either the Audio Desk or Klaudio would likely render the most ideal results.

Since I have three machines, I am curious about buying the ClearAudio Double Matrix Sonic. That would make 4 units. Paul didn't have a suggestion for this scenerio.

Perhaps use the Klaudio for the final cleanse and rinse?

What are your thoughts?
 
Every RCF has a sound, some less than others. Then the issue with vacuum based machines is as the quantity of fluid on the LP decreases, surface tension increases. Thus removing the last vestiges of a RCF on a vacuum based machine is very difficult.

Ergo the best fluid is pure water and by default the KLaudio. Or you could try dropping the quantity of fluid used in the AD as some have suggested.
 
cmalak said:
David...here's a link written by Bill Hart above on his new website on record cleaning: Cleaning - Care Archives - The Vinyl Press

There are many other sources for info, including Michael Fremer here: The Most Comprehensive Record Cleaning Article Ever! | Analog Planet
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Might want to check this out to. :) See if can find that issue and figure a way to put it online.

As Myles Astor has demonstrated (in his article 'Record Cleaning Fluids,' Sounds Like #8, May 1990. This is the finest article to date on the subject of record cleaning fluid chemistry and its sonic consequences), groove wall interactions occur on a molecular level, and like it or not, any and every cleaning fluid will leave some amount of itself behind. In order to keep residues to a minimum, the cleaning solution used in each step must dissolve the one used previously. This minimizes or prevents audible cleaning fluid residue signatures such as low level 'whoosh' and high pitched hiss.
 
I think Myles has done a huge amount over the years, including his reviews on fluids, comparisons of ultrasonic machines, and his reviews on inner sleeves (one that was old, and one that was quite recent). And Myles was one of the first, to my knowledge, to speak to the sonic signature of various fluids.
 
billhart said:
I think Myles has done a huge amount over the years, including his reviews on fluids, comparisons of ultrasonic machines, and his reviews on inner sleeves (one that was old, and one that was quite recent). And Myles was one of the first, to my knowledge, to speak to the sonic signature of various fluids.
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Actually Enid did right about the same time too.
 
David, because of the Bill's article, I too am researching record cleaning methods and machines. Currently own a KL myself which I find, requires 2-3 5 minute washes for old LPs to get things pretty clean, but I think there is still room for improvement. Hence I'm researching into things like Keith Monks or the VPI 27, etc.

Somewhat related topic can be found here.
 
Myles, can't find the RCM fluids article posted anywhere on the web.:weird: It's referenced everywhere, including earlier on AS, but no article.:what: If you ever find it, would you mind posting here on AS?

cheers
 
socfan12 said:
Myles, can't find the RCM fluids article posted anywhere on the web.:weird: It's referenced everywhere, including earlier on AS, but no article.:what: If you ever find it, would you mind posting here on AS?

cheers
Click to expand...

I will try and find it. Will have to look through some boxes but that issue might be in storage. I think Francisco/Microstrip posted it a while back on WBF but I couldn't find it. Perhaps if he reads this post.
 
Hey Guys... here's a bit more back story on the RCMs I own and use and what I have experienced and really would love some feedback. Maybe I am doing it all wrong... and I certainly, given how much money I have spent, would like to be very wrong and know how to make this all work! So, feel free to be critical...it's the only way I will learn.

I have a huge vinyl collection. My first ever RCM, the VPI HW27 and it performed great. Never a complaint. I cleaned all my vinyl with it and it never tired. Love VPI products.


I bought the Klaudio this past August 2014 and got rid of the VPI. I went back and cleaned every piece of vinyl over a period of month and it too, never tired. A snap and effortless. Drop it in and go.


But the problem is. All the vinyl I re-cleaned had already been beautifully done by the VPI RCM. So, I really couldn't determine an improvement.


However, since I no longer had the VPI and was purchasing brand new vinyl, the only device I had now was the Klaudio and when I would clean & play the new pressings, they sounded terrible. Snap Crack Pop on pandemic levels.


It was argued, I am buying crap pressings. So, I thought...could be true. But something told me...something is not right about the Klaudio. Because, I have read on AA all these comments about how great it is.


I did an experiment. I repurchased the VPI HW27 and processed some of those new records cleaned by the Kaludio and all those snap crackle and pops nearly disappeared and the audio space created, fantastic! The vinyl was now enjoyable and listenable.


I even processed those now VPI cleaned records back into the Kaludio and no improvement. There were some lingering snap crack and pops.


So, I took it a step further. I purchased the Audio Desk. and processed those Klaudio cleaned, VPI Cleaned and then Kaludio re-cleaned into the Audio Desk and those final Snap Crackle and Pops disappeared and the vinyl seemed to open up even more.


*I am increasingly more tempted to purchased the ClearAudio Double Matrix Sonic to add that to the mix and compare.

*@socfan12. Like you, I have cleaned the vinyl countless times with no results. I have spoken to Tim at Klaudio and he had by buy a device on Amazon to test the WATTS. I verified. In fact, it test above the minimum. So, in Tim's opinion, it's working correctly. But, if I am achieving results with the VPI and Audio Desk, something tells me one of two things:

1. Klaudio is defective
2. Klaudio doesn't work.

Perhaps there is not just one solution?
 
David...I am guessing Myles would be the best to advise here as he probably has experience with all the RCMs you have used. I have the lowly VPI 16.5 and it does a fine job for me but I am sure it can be bettered moving up the chain. What I would say is that having all four machines (if you include the Clearaudio Double Matrix, is clearly overkill. If you are getting the results you want from the VPI HW-27 and the Audio Deske why not just sell the Klaudio and call it a day? Just my 2c :dunno:
 
I agree with you, I don't think there's one solution. I use the KL and like it it's ease of use. On new, clean records, it takes a 1-3 passes to get rid of the noise. On used vinyl that I buy, I'm not sure it's effective against all the contaminants that can mar up the LP surface. From what I've read (note, no experience in though) solutions, particularly with enzymes, seem to clean even further.

I am looking at the VPI 27 in fact to augment my cleaning process. Certain Monks models caught my eye as well as it says it's very quiet and thus can be used to clean an LP while playing one (the KL is rather noisy and sits outside my listening room).

Interested in where this takes you, Golucid. I think the KL is a great machine, and I hope you get yours fixed/addressed. But I don't think it's a one stop solution for all records we can come across.

(One LP I purchased from an Amazon reseller actually had dried booger on the LP [and they claimed it was 'Like New']. No amount of ultrasonic cleaning will get rid of that, LOL! :))
 
I've only ever used an RCM with vacuum method. Currently own the VPI 17 and if performs well.

I'd think that the Ultrasonic RCM's would be great as a final cycle after something like the VPI wash/agitate with brush/vac/rinse/agitate with brush/vac process that is the normal mantra for vacuum RCM's.

Having used ultrasonic cleaners for many other uses over the years myself (cleaning drafting pen tips, jewelry, watch bands, car keys, etc.) I sure wouldn't think that using one solely by itself would be a good method for cleaning records. If you've ever dipped a metal link watch band into an ultrasonic cleaner filled with warm water and a little soap you will see that almost instantly the water is discolored from all the dirt and grease contained within the links of the watch band.

In my opinion, using an US RCM only would be like taking pots, pans and plates after an evening meal straight from the stove / table and placing them in the dishwasher without first at least rinsing them in the sink or throwing out excess food into the garbage before placing in a dishwasher. On top of that, if there isn't a filter or drain mechanism in place on an US RCM for between cycles, then to use another food and dishes analogy, it would be like taking those same dirty, greasy dishes/pans and doing the dishes in the sink, then when finished with batch one of dishes you drain the sink but DON'T scrub the sink, just refill it and wash the next batch. Thus, you just transfer the first batches' crud to the next batch due to the sink basin retaining grease and crud.

I bet the US RCM's work great for the first five or so LP's though....until they become fouled.

Maybe using an US RCM by itself just means you need to clean the tank walls and replace the fluids more often? How often do you do so with the Klaudio?
 
MikeCh said:
I've only ever used an RCM with vacuum method. Currently own the VPI 17 and if performs well.

I'd think that the Ultrasonic RCM's would be great as a final cycle after something like the VPI wash/agitate with brush/vac/rinse/agitate with brush/vac process that is the normal mantra for vacuum RCM's.

Having used ultrasonic cleaners for many other uses over the years myself (cleaning drafting pen tips, jewelry, watch bands, car keys, etc.) I sure wouldn't think that using one solely by itself would be a good method for cleaning records. If you've ever dipped a metal link watch band into an ultrasonic cleaner filled with warm water and a little soap you will see that almost instantly the water is discolored from all the dirt and grease contained within the links of the watch band.

In my opinion, using an US RCM only would be like taking pots, pans and plates after an evening meal straight from the stove / table and placing them in the dishwasher without first at least rinsing them in the sink or throwing out excess food into the garbage before placing in a dishwasher. On top of that, if there isn't a filter or drain mechanism in place on an US RCM for between cycles, then to use another food and dishes analogy, it would be like taking those same dirty, greasy dishes/pans and doing the dishes in the sink, then whether you drain the sink or not when finished, DON'T scrub the sink, just refill it and wash the next batch. Thus, you just transfer the first batches' crud to the next batch due to the sink basin retaining grease and crud.

I bet the US RCM's work great for the first five or so LP's though....until they become fouled.

Maybe using an US RCM by itself just means you need to clean the tank walls and replace the fluids more often? How often do you do so with the Klaudio?
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Mike those issues have already been addressed in the reviews and by the machine's designers. It's a non-issue. Not to mention we're talking a different sonicator. Not a toy.

Emptying the tank depends on what type of LPs you clean and the pcts. If you do mainly new LP, a lot longer, maybe 150 LPs. If you primarily clean used LPs, maybe a 100 LPs. Water is cheap, $2 or so for distilled water.
 
socfan12 said:
(One LP I purchased from an Amazon reseller actually had dried booger on the LP [and they claimed it was 'Like New']. No amount of ultrasonic cleaning will get rid of that, LOL! :))
Click to expand...

LOLOLOLOL. Yeah, no RCM is going to clean that! Grab a pair of gloves and proceed with caution.
 
Actually, I do brush my LPs, new and old, before I put them into the KL. On new records, I'll often get scraps of paper, dust, etc. On used LPs, I find hair on the LPs 50% of the time!

I've been using Sleeve City's LP brush. Seems to pick up more dust then the others I've used. Hope it's safe for the records!
 
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