Ultrasonic Record Cleaners ???

astrotoy said:
I put my AudioDeske on the far side of an adjacent room and close the door. Really helps with the drying noise. The AD came out earlier than the KI. I might have bought the KI if it had been available for comparison. It wasn't, so I bought the AD. Since both are around $4K, I haven't had the great desire to spend another $4K for the KI. There is a cost for consumables in the AD, but they are pretty trivial compared to the capital cost of the device. I have probably cleaned about 5000 records, part of my ripping project and will clean about 2500 more before most of my cleaning is over. No mechanical problems, although I know there were problems in the earlier production runs of the AD. My sense from talking to other crazy vinylphiles is that the KI is probably slightly better, both the AD and KI are substantially better than the VPI (which I have had in one form or another since they were first introduced in the mid 80's) and both of them are a whole lot easier to use, "set it and forget it" than the VPI. One thing using the AD that I discovered is that there is a slight residue left after cleaning with my VPI, and the AD and probably the KI removes. Almost all of the records that I have cleaned and am currently cleaning have either been cleaned by my VPI already or are new. Relatively few (1-2%) are used records that I have bought in the past three or so years that I have had the AD.

Larry
Click to expand...

I don't think the AD or KI necessarily clean better than the VPI, but definitely easier and more efficiently, no doubt about it. I think it's a difference of method with the same results in my opinion and experience. However, yes, the VPI I would swear on a stack is at least 10 times louder and definitely more labor intensive, no question about it because I use a VPI 16.5. The VPI could clean 1000 records, no problem, but I can't! I would not want to stand there doing that!
However, I also only have about 400 records so a $4k ultrasonic RCM would not be cost effective in my case at the very least even if money grew on trees. (Not that I would mind having one). That said though, you can bet the farm that if I had a collection like yours or even 900 to 1000 records, I'd want an KI or AD in the strongest way.
 
MusicDirector said:
I don't think the AD or KI necessarily clean better than the VPI, but definitely easier and more efficiently, no doubt about it. I think it's a difference of method with the same results in my opinion and experience. However, yes, the VPI I would swear on a stack is at least 10 times louder and definitely more labor intensive, no question about it because I use a VPI 16.5. The VPI could clean 1000 records, no problem, but I can't! I would not want to stand there doing that!
However, I also only have about 400 records so a $4k ultrasonic RCM would not be cost effective in my case at the very least even if money grew on trees. (Not that I would mind having one). That said though, you can bet the farm that if I had a collection like yours or even 900 to 1000 records, I'd want an KI or AD in the strongest way.
Click to expand...

Sorry but they're not even in the same universe. :) There's simply no contest between the ultrasonic cleaners and the rub a dub dub and vacuum cleaners. I've had the best of both--not to mention written about the various fluids and cleaning methods since the '90s; go to Analog Planet where Michael linked to copy of the original article that I did for Sounds Like... magazine). A lot of has simply to do with removing the proteinaceous substances left behind by the fungus, etc. that grow in the grooves (for reference, go back to the work of Bruce Maier, who started Discwasher and Jon Risch; FYI, they also did the early work on VTA vs SRA in Audio magazine). Not to mention you can drive yourself crazy trying the 10 or 15 different fluids on the market. With the KL, it's just distilled water and you're ready. But there's also more going on, whether it be removing mold release compounds, etc. Whatever, the ensuing sound is essentially a manifestation of the stylus tracing the grooves walls more accurately with much less jitter.


Certainly an alternative is if you belong an audio club and everyone in the club pitches in and buys a machine to use.
 
PS I wish the US cleaners were cheaper but when you see what goes into them, it's impossible.

OTOH, Rob talked about the cheaper US cleaner that I think is sold on Audiogon.
 
I have not owned the KL but it seems like a good machine I am on my third AD and yes the early ones had problems. Are Ultra Sonics worth it, well I keep buying them I hear the difference and I think anyone would . They are easy to use not silent but wash the record then play it or buy a real amp and play it loud just kidding . Is it worth it if you have a real interest yes they are worth it. I also have a DeMag and few people seem to have one and yes I like it as well and use it every time I play a record.
 
In the end, as Peter Ledermann says, "it's about groove jitter." How well does the cartridge's stylus trace and stay in contact with the groove walls?
 
I have had the the Klaudio for almost 2 years. Previously a VPI 16.5. As Miles has stated, the difference is night and day. Admittedly, I did not try all the many possible cleaning solutions with the VPI, preferring to go cheap with a DIY solution. With the Klaudio, I use RO water which I already had at my kitchen sink, at no additional cost. Thus, I change it frequently, about every 100 LP's.

I have no experience with the AD, but believe it does an excellent job, in spite of it's early problems with which I am glad I didn't have to deal. Additionally, I am happy I don't have to deal with the consumables required by the AD (or the VPI). The bottom line: I believe ultra sonic cleaning of LP's is the best! The sonic results are incredible.

My Klaudio is in the next room. Thus, I can place a disc in the machine, close the door, and walk away! Being a slave to the VPI, with the ear deafening noise, dependence on proper technique and SOTA solutions is history!! Meantime, I can return to enjoying music. For me, end of story.
 
Myles B. Astor said:
Sorry but they're not even in the same universe. :) There's simply no contest between the ultrasonic cleaners and the rub a dub dub and vacuum cleaners. I've had the best of both--not to mention written about the various fluids and cleaning methods since the '90s; go to Analog Planet where Michael linked to copy of the original article that I did for Sounds Like... magazine). A lot of has simply to do with removing the proteinaceous substances left behind by the fungus, etc. that grow in the grooves (for reference, go back to the work of Bruce Maier, who started Discwasher and Jon Risch; FYI, they also did the early work on VTA vs SRA in Audio magazine). Not to mention you can drive yourself crazy trying the 10 or 15 different fluids on the market. With the KL, it's just distilled water and you're ready. But there's also more going on, whether it be removing mold release compounds, etc. Whatever, the ensuing sound is essentially a manifestation of the stylus tracing the grooves walls more accurately with much less jitter.


Certainly an alternative is if you belong an audio club and everyone in the club pitches in and buys a machine to use.
Click to expand...

I was not suggesting they were the same machine, however, they are both RCMs and just work differently. Sure, with something like a VPI 16.5 the magic is in the fluids and technique, I'll grant you that and it is nice to only have to use water with an ultrasonic. However, I'd like someone to explain to me how it is that none of my $1 records have so much as a crackle with using my VPI. I think, a lot of that also has to do with the condition of the record in the first place though perhaps, but how good is the condition of a $1 record? Not very good 99% of the time.
Yes, I went a little crazy trying different fluids when I had my DIY record cleaning setup that included vacuum. When I got the VPI I went with trying AVIS and never looked back.
In case you could not tell, I'm not knocking the ultrasonic machines, quite the opposite. (For someone with a tiny collection like I have though a $4k RCM is a waste. For someone with 1000+, it's a god-send).
By the way, Mr. Fremer liked the VPI and uses/used AVIS fluids exclusively. I also know that he would not tell someone with a small collection to run out and get a $4k RCM. In fact, he says so in the review he wrote on the Autodesk I think. However, he also has a collection big enough to fill my entire 2 bedroom apartment to the roof and therefore he needs an ultrasonic cleaner.

Anyway, this is not about VPI vs ultrasonic vs etc. I love the whole concept of the $4k machines. I only mentioned in passing that it would be a waste for me to get one with my tiny collection and that I get the same excellent results with what I use and yet feathers get ruffled?
 
Thanks again to everyone for all your responses on your experience with US cleaners. I think I will get one, but I need to find the right deal from someone.
 
Last edited:
I think it depends on how many records you have and whether you have any issues with many of your records. I have over 5000 LP's, so the high cost is amortised a little easier.

I have a Hannl RCM and it is very good and very quiet - quieter than the KLA and takes less time to clean a record, but cleaning is manual.

However

The KLA does clean a bit better. Records, especially new crappy US pressings definitely clean up better and end up being quieter with the KLA as do used records I have tried the KLA with.

The KLA is automatic which is great, however if it is in the same room as your HiFi, it is far too loud to listen to music.
 
XV-1 said:
I think it depends on how many records you have and whether you have any issues with many of your records. I have over 5000 LP's, so the high cost is amortised a little easier.

I have a Hannl RCM and it is very good and very quiet - quieter than the KLA and takes less time to clean a record.

However

The KLA does clean a bit better. Records, especially new crappy US pressings definitely clean up better and end up being quieter with the KLA as does some used records I have tried the KLA with.

The KLA is automatic which is great, however if it is in the same room as your HiFi, it is far too loud to listen to music.
Click to expand...

The nice thing about the KLAudio or Audio Deske record cleaners is their automation. Drop the record in and either press a button or just wait for the cleaning operation to start. Certainly makes one more prone to clean their records.
 
My 2 cents on RCM and the KL Audio.

The KL Audio is built like a tank. The owner, Tim, used his experience from his cooling machines company to build this. I am sure some of the vendors and materials are from expertise in that field also.

There is nothing but ultrasonic waves cleaning the record and at the end it is air dried. Great as nothing touches the record.

The visual indicators are very good and easy to find out where you are in the cleaning process. You also have the option of choosing different cleaning times and separately, different drying times, all with indicators of where you are in each cycle (although once the cycle is picked, there is nothing to do but leave the room).

When it is done, there is a chirp to remind you it is done. It goes off every minute or so. That way when you are not in the room, it is not going off continuously and it is not annoying long or frequent.

The KL Audio allows distilled or regular tap water for cleaning. Take your pick. Of course for purist, distilled water is used. The instructions say not to add anything else but many I know have put in additions, some to change the ph as fat absorbers (fatty items left from new record process).

The return/warranty process is excellent, fast and easy. Tim even pays for shipping back.

The power is 200 watts. Some of the other cleaners are much lower. Not that higher is better. If not used correctly, the ultrasonic waves can be destructive to your records. Check the clean out with a different colored vinyl to see if you are losing your record. This is a line I am stealing from KL Audio who did a test with a red Vinyl record to show there was no red residue.

It is easy to put in the water as well as to remove it without taking it to the sink. The funnel provide is very cumbersome to use. I use the hose stuck straight in and gravity to make the water go from the bottle down the hose (suck in a section, hold it with the thumb, hold the distilled water container higher up then the clearer, then put the hose into where the funnel goes. Gravity does it work and fast!)

The records come out looking like new. I did have to rub off some larger grime on very old records. I don't know why it stuck on and came off so easily after the clean. Surprisingly there were no marks from where the grime was.

I was very impressed with the KL Audio as a product, as a cleaner and as a company. Hopefully Tim will produce more record accessories. I have his record clamp also. perhaps a rebranded Lyra or Jasmine cartridge??
 
MDP said:
Thanks again to everyone for all your responses on your experience with US cleaners. I think I will get one, but I need to find the right deal from someone.
Click to expand...

Mark, your not thinking of going "used" are you? I only mention that because after all the reviews written and video I've read and watched on these machines, I'd recommend a warrantied unit. Unlike a VPI machine or what have you, these things are not as user serviceable. As far as I can tell, you can't easily run out and get a plentiful part you need for $30 or $40 and replace it yourself like you could on a VPI or other traditional RCM. If it were me getting one of these, I'd go new with warranty.
 
XV-1 said:
I think it depends on how many records you have and whether you have any issues with many of your records. I have over 5000 LP's, so the high cost is amortised a little easier.

I have a Hannl RCM and it is very good and very quiet - quieter than the KLA and takes less time to clean a record, but cleaning is manual.

However

The KLA does clean a bit better. Records, especially new crappy US pressings definitely clean up better and end up being quieter with the KLA as do used records I have tried the KLA with.

The KLA is automatic which is great, however if it is in the same room as your HiFi, it is far too loud to listen to music.
Click to expand...

Exactly. I have about 400 records and factoring in the cost of my RCM on a bad day it cost me $1.75 to clean a record. It cost 25 cents per record without factoring in the machine cost. If I got an AD or KI it would cost me at least $10 per record. 98.9% of my records were purchased for $1 to $3 so it would be a waste for me.
However, in your case with 5000 records and an AD or KI it would cost just 80 cents to clean a record. Plus I imagine the majority of your records are not used $1 records so the amortization gets smaller still.
Like I said, if I had 1000 records at any price, I'd own an AD or KI. The amortization would be $4 per record at that point, but well worth it when you factor in the automation and not having to buy chemicals and everything.
 
MerrillAudio said:
My 2 cents on RCM and the KL Audio.

The KL Audio is built like a tank. The owner, Tim, used his experience from his cooling machines company to build this. I am sure some of the vendors and materials are from expertise in that field also.

There is nothing but ultrasonic waves cleaning the record and at the end it is air dried. Great as nothing touches the record.

The visual indicators are very good and easy to find out where you are in the cleaning process. You also have the option of choosing different cleaning times and separately, different drying times, all with indicators of where you are in each cycle (although once the cycle is picked, there is nothing to do but leave the room).

When it is done, there is a chirp to remind you it is done. It goes off every minute or so. That way when you are not in the room, it is not going off continuously and it is not annoying long or frequent.

The KL Audio allows distilled or regular tap water for cleaning. Take your pick. Of course for purist, distilled water is used. The instructions say not to add anything else but many I know have put in additions, some to change the ph as fat absorbers (fatty items left from new record process).

The return/warranty process is excellent, fast and easy. Tim even pays for shipping back.

The power is 200 watts. Some of the other cleaners are much lower. Not that higher is better. If not used correctly, the ultrasonic waves can be destructive to your records. Check the clean out with a different colored vinyl to see if you are losing your record. This is a line I am stealing from KL Audio who did a test with a red Vinyl record to show there was no red residue.

It is easy to put in the water as well as to remove it without taking it to the sink. The funnel provide is very cumbersome to use. I use the hose stuck straight in and gravity to make the water go from the bottle down the hose (suck in a section, hold it with the thumb, hold the distilled water container higher up then the clearer, then put the hose into where the funnel goes. Gravity does it work and fast!)

The records come out looking like new. I did have to rub off some larger grime on very old records. I don't know why it stuck on and came off so easily after the clean. Surprisingly there were no marks from where the grime was.

I was very impressed with the KL Audio as a product, as a cleaner and as a company. Hopefully Tim will produce more record accessories. I have his record clamp also. perhaps a rebranded Lyra or Jasmine cartridge??
Click to expand...

One minor thing. Tim is the sales manager for the RCMs; Peter Cheon is the designer. ;)
 
MusicDirector said:
Exactly. I have about 400 records and factoring in the cost of my RCM on a bad day it cost me $1.75 to clean a record. It cost 25 cents per record without factoring in the machine cost. If I got an AD or KI it would cost me at least $10 per record. 98.9% of my records were purchased for $1 to $3 so it would be a waste for me.
However, in your case with 5000 records and an AD or KI it would cost just 80 cents to clean a record. Plus I imagine the majority of your records are not used $1 records so the amortization gets smaller still.
Like I said, if I had 1000 records at any price, I'd own an AD or KI. The amortization would be $4 per record at that point, but well worth it when you factor in the automation and not having to buy chemicals and everything.
Click to expand...

I have have often thought that because of the price and use of the RCM, it should be a shared resource. 4 audiophiles purchase it and each get it for 3 months in a year. That way the Ultrasonic cleaners would only be $1,000 each. Perhaps the 1st person pays and extra $100, the next extra $50, the next less $50 and the last less $100. Patience pays off. Or start with 1 month each in the begining and they begin the 3 month rotation.
 
MerrillAudio said:
I have have often thought that because of the price and use of the RCM, it should be a shared resource. 4 audiophiles purchase it and each get it for 3 months in a year. That way the Ultrasonic cleaners would only be $1,000 each. Perhaps the 1st person pays and extra $100, the next extra $50, the next less $50 and the last less $100. Patience pays off. Or start with 1 month each in the begining and they begin the 3 month rotation.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I suggested. :) Same goes with some other audio accessories. Or audio clubs can pitch in and buy one.

I also think there's a guy now who's going around ps to different cities offering to clean LPs with the US machine. There was something about that recently posted on PFO. I'll see if I can look that out later!
 
Well, I bit the bullet and ordered a new Klaudio RCM today !

I love my vinyl and want to get the most out of the grooves, and with retirement coming up, I should be set as far as my vinyl system goes.

:woot:
 
MDP said:
Well, I bit the bullet and ordered a new Klaudio RCM today !

I love my vinyl and want to get the most out of the grooves, and with retirement coming up, I should be set as far as my vinyl system goes.

:woot:
Click to expand...

Congratulations Mark. You made a wise choice.

Dre
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top