Tubes educte me please

M

Mordante

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I'm about to buy a tube pre amp. It will be my first ever endeavor into tube amplification.

As far as I can tell it has 3 tubes, ECC81, ECC83 and ECC88.
(ECC83, 12AX7) is the Input Tube. Please use Low Noise Tubes of high quality with matched systems.
(ECC81, 12AT7) is for the Main Amplification Stage.
(ECC88, 6922, 6N23, 6N1,) is for the Output Buffer.

Are these uncommon hard to get or are they regular mass produced tubes?

Also contemplating a tube power amp. It comes as far as I can tell with the following tubes

4 KT120
1 6SN7 driver
2 ECC82 (E82CC, 12UA7A, 5814, 6189) driver

So what can people tell me.

I know nothing about tubes. How long will they last, what can I expect?


 
As stated, all tubes are readily available. As for how long they will last -- many years. 3-5 even 10 years are not uncommon in preamplifiers. Amplifiers are a little harder on tubes, in particular the power tubes. But even then you can expect many years of trouble free operation with most equipment.
 
The little tubes usually last for what seems like forever. Current production tubes are good but not great IMO. Vintage tubes on the other hand sure have some 'house sounds' that are not available today. ex Mullard is a very warm sounding tube where GEC is very linear Telefunkens are somewhere in the middle. Those are just the 3 most notable big names. Rca - GE - Sylvania are some others.

That said with the X3's you want a more linear sound. Imaging - soundstage and depth will also vary between the manufacturers. It's best to try them for yourself. Unfortunately there are no tube lending service that I have ever heard about.
 
octadyndude said:
The little tubes usually last for what seems like forever. Current production tubes are good but not great IMO. Vintage tubes on the other hand sure have some 'house sounds' that are not available today. ex Mullard is a very warm sounding tube where GEC is very linear Telefunkens are somewhere in the middle. Those are just the 3 most notable big names. Rca - GE - Sylvania are some others.

That said with the X3's you want a more linear sound. Imaging - soundstage and depth will also vary between the manufacturers. It's best to try them for yourself. Unfortunately there are no tube lending service that I have ever heard about.
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It will be a while before I need replacement tubes I hope. I’ve heard good things about EAT tubes but they are rare and expensive.

But first other priorities, like a Finite Element Tragwerk audio racks for my power amps and another for the rest of my system.
 
For sure try some NOS tubes, many sound much better than today's tubes. There are plenty of great sounding ECC88 and 6922 NOS tubes from the late 1950's and early 1960's. I prefer the non A frame Telefunkens from about 1957-1962, but beware of fakes. For the 12AX7's if you can find a good pair of 1950's Raytheon Black Plate tubes with the shiny long black plates, they are just fabulously musical with good detail.

If your preamp is new, then it may sound like crap the first 25-50 hours until all the tubes break in.

Don't drive yourself crazy too much if you decide to tube roll!

Larry
 
When I had the Octave V70se I tried EAT KT88 Diamonds. I bought a quad - pair and a spare (all pre owned). Within 45 days I lost 4. That said they all were pretty early s/n's too. Later a tube guru told me the EAT's were designed to run with a 450V plate voltage and the V70se runs at 540V. They had a hard time holding bias. As I remember they were highly detailed and not really a good match for my Dynaudio C1's. I'm sure they would sound great with Raidho's but at that time I was down to 3 good ones and one flaky one.
 
Forgot to mention I also had KR Audio enterprise KT88's that look identical to the EAT's except for the S/N up at the mica. Lost 2 of those within 60 days.
 
octadyndude said:
Forgot to mention I also had KR Audio enterprise KT88's that look identical to the EAT's except for the S/N up at the mica. Lost 2 of those within 60 days.
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Damn! Seriously? I just got a box of those. Ugh.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
octadyndude said:
When I had the Octave V70se I tried EAT KT88 Diamonds. I bought a quad - pair and a spare (all pre owned). Within 45 days I lost 4. That said they all were pretty early s/n's too. Later a tube guru told me the EAT's were designed to run with a 450V plate voltage and the V70se runs at 540V. They had a hard time holding bias. As I remember they were highly detailed and not really a good match for my Dynaudio C1's. I'm sure they would sound great with Raidho's but at that time I was down to 3 good ones and one flaky one.
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Yes some years back now a friend of mine bought a batch of EAT power tubes-- they nearly all failed or were faulty-- EAT argued and no resolution was reached.

My friend lost out big time-- I'd avoid EAT tubes frankly--or at your peril.

Bruce
 
In terms of tubes isn't EAT just a re-brander and re-seller like Richardson and National were in the 70-80's? Buy low in bulk and sell high.
 
Dear Mordante: I have owned a tube preamp since 1992. It utilizes 12AX7’s, 12AU7’s, 12FQ7’s (sorry I gave the brand away) and 6x4 rectifiers. I continue to love this preamp and feel an upgrade would be costly and over my budget. But the “best” tube for any system is highly component dependent. When you own tube equipment getting acclimated to a tube brand is only scratching the surface. You will also discover what tube brand works best for what tube position as the same tube type may be used differently in the circuit. For example, when my preamp gets noisy it is almost always the 12AU7’s fault. My preamp taxes the 12AU7 so much, many do not work in the curcuit at all. Once I was flabergasted as a rectifier tube 6x4 was slowly contributing distortion into the system. And NOS tubes are becoming prohibitively expensive as they become more and more rare. And I can bet dollars to donuts your beloved brand will “go away’” some day soon. Maybe even that tube type! Egads !!! Be prepared to have a closet full of tubes which mostly don’t work that great in your system. You just keep buying them over and over. Also be aware that there will be times you will hate your system since tubes deteriorate slowly over time. You don’t like what you hear but don’t always connect it to tube wear. In the end, I feel there is no tube component that cannot be matched by a solid state one. Solid state can sound so good and has become so reliable I would never advise someone to go tube over solid state. For endless tinkerers, yes. But if consistant great sound is your goal skip the tube thing. If you do your research and attain a great match, every time you turn on your system it will sound the same.

PS: If you prefer not to use your valued component as a ‘tube tester’, it’s best to get yourself one. Good tube testers do not come cheap. You would be supprised how many tubes don’t work out of the box.
 
Joseph R. said:
Dear Mordante: I have owned a tube preamp since 1992. It utilizes 12AX7’s, 12AU7’s, 12FQ7’s (sorry I gave the brand away) and 6x4 rectifiers. I continue to love this preamp and feel an upgrade would be costly and over my budget. But the “best” tube for any system is highly component dependent. When you own tube equipment getting acclimated to a tube brand is only scratching the surface. You will also discover what tube brand works best for what tube position as the same tube type may be used differently in the circuit. For example, when my preamp gets noisy it is almost always the 12AU7’s fault. My preamp taxes the 12AU7 so much, many do not work in the curcuit at all. Once I was flabergasted as a rectifier tube 6x4 was slowly contributing distortion into the system. And NOS tubes are becoming prohibitively expensive as they become more and more rare. And I can bet dollars to donuts your beloved brand will “go away’” some day soon. Maybe even that tube type! Egads !!! Be prepared to have a closet full of tubes which mostly don’t work that great in your system. You just keep buying them over and over. Also be aware that there will be times you will hate your system since tubes deteriorate slowly over time. You don’t like what you hear but don’t always connect it to tube wear. In the end, I feel there is no tube component that cannot be matched by a solid state one. Solid state can sound so good and has become so reliable I would never advise someone to go tube over solid state. For endless tinkerers, yes. But if consistant great sound is your goal skip the tube thing. If you do your research and attain a great match, every time you turn on your system it will sound the same.

PS: If you prefer not to use your valued component as a ‘tube tester’, it’s best to get yourself one. Good tube testers do not come cheap. You would be supprised how many tubes don’t work out of the box.
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I will not join the NOS tube merry go round. When it's time to replace the tubes I'll buy new tubes. All the tubes in my amps are still in production.


How can you tell when tubes go bad? In the pre amp I have 4 tubes two ECC88, ECC83 and ECC81. These should be good for many years of use. In each power amp 4 KT120, wto ECC82 and one 6SN7.


All of these are in production. So I don't foresee problems.
 
If you don't want to the quality of vintage, go ahead and buy the new stuff. SQ will suffer, but hey, its your call.
 
wisnon said:
If you don't want to the quality of vintage, go ahead and buy the new stuff. SQ will suffer, but hey, its your call.
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SQ will not suffer when I replace new production tubes with new production tubes. Besides that, buying NOS tubes is a crap shoot you never know what you get, how it will sound and if you will ever be able to replace them. Besides that from what I read is that many NOS tubes give a midrange bloom and rolled of highs. That is definitely not the sound I'm looking for.

Also there are no KT120 NOS tubes. I only know of two companies that make these.
 
You can tell when a tube is going bad if a channel becomes noisy. You may hear microphonics, static or distorted sound depending upon how bad they are.

I agree, NOS tubes can be a merry go round. I use to tube roll quite a bit. You can drive yourself crazy. I sold off most of my NOS 6CG7's and 6DJ8's.

However, not all NOS tubes add bloom and have rolled off highs. Some do, some don't. I found many to have just as much detail if not better without sounding harsh. Many are more musical, have better bass and smoother highs. There can be great differences among NOS tubes. I tried about a dozen versions of the 6CG7's and they all sounded remarkably different. Same for the 6DJ8's and ECC88, 6922's.
 
Mordante said:
SQ will not suffer when I replace new production tubes with new production tubes. Besides that, buying NOS tubes is a crap shoot you never know what you get, how it will sound and if you will ever be able to replace them. Besides that from what I read is that many NOS tubes give a midrange bloom and rolled of highs. That is definitely not the sound I'm looking for.

Also there are no KT120 NOS tubes. I only know of two companies that make these.
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Lol

U started this thread asking questions and now you are lecturing? ROTFLMAO

Carry on, I am out.
 
wisnon said:
Lol

U started this thread asking questions and now you are lecturing? ROTFLMAO

Carry on, I am out.
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Suffer means it becomes worse then it is. That is not the case if I replace them with the same tube. In that case the SQ does not suffer, it stays the same. Besides that, show me where I can buy vintage KT120 tubes. Since the power amp tubes are as fare as I know the first to go. They will be replaced first.

Or am I missing something?
 
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