Trying out the D'Agostino S250

Priaptor -

Appreciate observations and commentary. As an owner of a DAG S-250, I agree this amp is absolutely wonderful and musical. I would also agree in that the ARC GS-150 is a superb amp. I have not heard the CH Precision M1 in a controlled setting but it is a terrific amp. A good friend has it and swears by it.

At the end of the day, all three are superb amps at different price points. Comes down to personal preference and related system components.

Enjoy the music!
 
As a past owner of Nola speakers and someone who added his first solid-state amplification into his system when I bought my D’Agostino, I second your opinion that the best solid-state has reached a point where it can be a serious contender with the best tubes.

CH Precision seems to be the no-holds-barred technology leader in electronics these days, perhaps somewhat similar to Magico’s position in their loudspeaker domain. (I hope that suggestion doesn’t provoke a storm of controversy ... :-)
 
mmaciag said:
As a past owner of Nola speakers and someone who added his first solid-state amplification into his system when I bought my D’Agostino, I second your opinion that the best solid-state has reached a point where it can be a serious contender with the best tubes.

CH Precision seems to be the no-holds-barred technology leader in electronics these days, perhaps somewhat similar to Magico’s position in their loudspeaker domain. (I hope that suggestion doesn’t provoke a storm of controversy ... :-)
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It is definitely, IMHO, a "no holds barred" technology. Truly astounded at how well this amp sounds. Truly NEVER expected to hear this kind of transformation in my system. Carl NEEDS to hear solid state with his speakers. He purposely uses the lightest weight magnets for his drivers so it would be logical that his speakers would benefit from solid state.

Also the synergy between the CH Precision and the Gobel cables are amazing. I was already extremely impressed with what these cables do, really looking forward to hearing the XLR from MSB to CH and two Gobel PC from the amp to complete the system. I am assuming Oliver Gobel uses this combination for a reason and now I understand.

No controversy. As I have said many many times, and as De Niro said in Heat, never get attached to something you can't walk away from in 30 seconds. I have no issue expressing my opinions as to what works in my system and in terms of what I hear. For me, the combination of these speakers, MSB Select II DAC, CH-Precision and Gobel cables is a transition to a whole different level. Just before Harry Pearson (a man of controversy in the high end but someone whose opinion I could always trust) passed away, he praised the Nola Concert Grands as the best speakers he has ever heard, those he heard in his room being driven by a REF75 I think with Nordost Odin (I as II hadn't yet been released). I wish he could have heard them the way I am hearing them now.
 
Priaptor said:
It is definitely, IMHO, a "no holds barred" technology. Truly astounded at how well this amp sounds. Truly NEVER expected to hear this kind of transformation in my system. Carl NEEDS to hear solid state with his speakers. He purposely uses the lightest weight magnets for his drivers so it would be logical that his speakers would benefit from solid state.

Also the synergy between the CH Precision and the Gobel cables are amazing. I was already extremely impressed with what these cables do, really looking forward to hearing the XLR from MSB to CH and two Gobel PC from the amp to complete the system. I am assuming Oliver Gobel uses this combination for a reason and now I understand.

No controversy. As I have said many many times, and as De Niro said in Heat, never get attached to something you can't walk away from in 30 seconds. I have no issue expressing my opinions as to what works in my system and in terms of what I hear. For me, the combination of these speakers, MSB Select II DAC, CH-Precision and Gobel cables is a transition to a whole different level. Just before Harry Pearson (a man of controversy in the high end but someone whose opinion I could always trust) passed away, he praised the Nola Concert Grands as the best speakers he has ever heard, those he heard in his room being driven by a REF75 I think with Nordost Odin (I as II hadn't yet been released). I wish he could have heard them the way I am hearing them now.
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What we listened to last evening was nothing short of amazing. The M-1 has totally changed my thought process about SS amplifiers. The combination of the M-1 with all the cables, the MSB- select2, your speakers and the room was pure Magic. Five hours of sitting listening to music without speaker says it all.
I love the album Anders Osborne " Coming Down/" I have suggested it to many of my friends and fellow music lovers. I always thought it was a good sounding disc but never would go as far as to say it was a great one until last night. He was in the room with us!
if you don't know this man he is Swedish by birth but it from New Orleans. He is a blues/rock/folk singer songwriter who writes of his life and struggles. If you need a comparison he is like Van Morrison/Dr. John with a dash of Leon Russel. He is raw and soulful and you can feel his pain and joy. It is one of my favorite albums of all time and I never heard it sound like it did last night.
I certainly don't want to start an issue but someone here said this amp is dry. I don't get that at all . The amp is a beast, it sounds unlimited in all areas. It plays small, large , simple , complex without ever a hint of distress.
As I said it has changed my thoughts about solid state forever. We had the excellent Dag S-250 in this system as well as a new prototype of another really excellent amp that is coming to market they were both really excellent but they did not reach where the M-1 soars.
IMHO,
Elliot
 
Sorry to bump an older thread but Mike has some great amps in the first picture of this thread! Mike how did the D’Agostino compare to the VAC 200iqs that you have in the corner of the room?
 
We have the M400 monos, and we've tried them with the MSB Ref as well as the SELECT. In both cases, no preamp was always preferred to a preamp (to our ears), be it a REF 10 or a D'Agostino Momentum Pre.

With the MSB REF DAC, going preamp-less was not as clear cut as with the SELECT, though, and there's always margin for taste. Some people might actually enjoy what the preamp is adding to the chain, in the case of the ARC preamps, the soundstage expands considerably, and goes full-on crazy 3D, even though you do lose a touch in the transparency department. Trade-offs, as usual...
 
I agree with Alex 100%. I too have tried multiple preamps - Ayre, Gryphon, ARC, etc feeding the Select II and the preamp section in the Select II was the winner. I’ve had others listen with me, and they all agreed.


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Mike, maybe you wanted to say "feeding the s250".
I know that Select 2 is spectacular, both as a DAC and as a Pre. I have listened to it as pre with MSB 204s.
My question is how worse is the Reference DAC as a pre-amp and is it an adequate match for the s250 power amp? Also is there any difference in the maximum SPL one can achieve with the same speakers, S250 power and Reference or Select dac as a pre?

Thank you!
 
Nataraja said:
Mike, maybe you wanted to say "feeding the s250".
I know that Select 2 is spectacular, both as a DAC and as a Pre. I have listened to it as pre with MSB 204s.
My question is how worse is the Reference DAC as a pre-amp and is it an adequate match for the s250 power amp? Also is there any difference in the maximum SPL one can achieve with the same speakers, S250 power and Reference or Select dac as a pre?

Thank you!
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I just talked to Vince at MSB regarding your question. If you go for the preamp module in the Ref, it’s the exact same as in the Select and far superior (according to Vince) then any stand alone line stage.

When you run the numbers on the REF with the top preamp module, it looks good.


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Mike,

Any idea how the preamp in the Reference dac compares to the MSB Dac V (which is now discontinued).
Thanks,
Anshul

Mike said:
I just talked to Vince at MSB regarding your question. If you go for the preamp module in the Ref, it’s the exact same as in the Select and far superior (according to Vince) then any stand alone line stage.

When you run the numbers on the REF with the top preamp module, it looks good.


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Click to expand...
 
Mike said:
I just talked to Vince at MSB regarding your question. If you go for the preamp module in the Ref, it’s the exact same as in the Select and far superior (according to Vince) then any stand alone line stage.

When you run the numbers on the REF with the top preamp module, it looks good.
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I didn't find this to be the case vs. my MF TVC preamp. ymmv.

I had also heard the preamp in the Select was slightly better, so this is interesting news that they are indeed the same.
 
KeithR said:
I didn't find this to be the case vs. my MF TVC preamp. ymmv.

I had also heard the preamp in the Select was slightly better, so this is interesting news that they are indeed the same.
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Of course, I don't agree. Keith's TVC preamp, while nice and incredible value for money, was blurring things up quite a bit, with a (pleasing, yes) "rounded" feel. Now, as I said before, whether you WANT that kind of artifact or not, that's debatable. But going direct was indeed much more transparent.

The preamp modules are indeed the same, but the quantity of DAC modules *driving* that preamp module isn't. SELECT has 8 per side, while REF has "only" 4. That's enough to halve the output impedance (in SELECT), and make everything extra nice :)
 
asiufy said:
Of course, I don't agree. Keith's TVC preamp, while nice and incredible value for money, was blurring things up quite a bit, with a (pleasing, yes) "rounded" feel. Now, as I said before, whether you WANT that kind of artifact or not, that's debatable. But going direct was indeed much more transparent.

The preamp modules are indeed the same, but the quantity of DAC modules *driving* that preamp module isn't. SELECT has 8 per side, while REF has "only" 4. That's enough to halve the output impedance (in SELECT), and make everything extra nice :)
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Alex - the passive pre sounded like other resistor-based ones I've heard (my first was the FT Audio back in 2000!). Timbres were thin (violins, cellos, vocals, you name it), decay was curtailed, and overall it was less dynamic with a smaller soundstage. Did it have more detail? Perhaps, but I don't worship at the alter of detail as the music just wasn't there. I was actually quite surprised we differed on this, but horses for courses. I have also tried my Analog dac direct and wasn't a fan of the connection, although it is in a much lower league.

Since the old Wadia days every DAC manufacturer feels compelled to have us ditch our preamps. Unfortunately, I've yet to find one where that has worked out. If fact, I was extremely pessimistic about even a TVC doing anything for me and was pleasantly surprised when it beat out several tube preamps *and* was more transparent. Including one rather well-regarded "blurry" one you heard :)

Matej @ Mono and Stereo uses a Bespoke Audio TVC in front of his Select- which is a similar concept and he feels is more transparent. Admittedly he has a full silver transformer rig which is probably a step higher than mine and might add the last drop of detail you felt was missing. Silver trannies are very expensive!

Perhaps Mike can give the forum some idea of how going direct with the Select compares with the preamps he carries. It does make the math much more compelling on the Select if you can replace a big name preamp.
 
asiufy said:
Of course, I don't agree. Keith's TVC preamp, while nice and incredible value for money, was blurring things up quite a bit, with a (pleasing, yes) "rounded" feel. Now, as I said before, whether you WANT that kind of artifact or not, that's debatable. But going direct was indeed much more transparent.

The preamp modules are indeed the same, but the quantity of DAC modules *driving* that preamp module isn't. SELECT has 8 per side, while REF has "only" 4. That's enough to halve the output impedance (in SELECT), and make everything extra nice :)
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I don’t think the number of DAC circuits actually affects the pre-amp qualities of the Select II per se.

The Nyquist has also 8 DAC circuits per channel (it’s a full double-mono setup). The benefit of that is that the DAC outputs are combined to lower the noise floor, randomize any conversion errors and create a balanced output signal. This does affect the conversion accuracy and noise floor.

Pre or not-to-pre has been discussed on this forum quite a few times and while some like it direct for detail retrieval, others feel that driving the power amp with a DAC sounds a tad dry.


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From a technical perspective, if my math is correct, the Select II has 8x DACs and the output is summed (with no amplification stage). The XLR output on the on the Select II is 75ohm's vs 150 ohms on the MSB REF DAC. So the Select II preamp module has no problem driving almost any amp, especially one like the D'Agostino which has input impedance of 1m ohm.

That being said, I have tried all of the DAC's in the store direct into the amps (Chord, PS Audio, Ayre, Lampizator, Berkeley, etc.) and in every case, a preamp in the mix was definitely preferred. However, that all changed with the Select II and it's purposely designed preamp module. I compared it to the REF10, VAC and Gryphon preamps and without question preferred the Preamp module in the Select II.

When MSB told me, "we are so confident in our preamp module, we will put it up against any preamp, regardless of price", my reaction was "yeah, right." It appears they are correct.
 
Thanks Mike - that is great to hear. Maybe the sum of the parts with the Select make it work better. Its a very compelling argument when you can eliminate a $30k box, IC, and power cord with the Select.

I know MikeL wanted to try the Select direct to his amps, but needs a Zeel output for the Select. Hopefully he can chime in on the results at some point.

The input impedance of my Ref 75SE is 300k ohms.
 
SELECT has 8 modules per channel, for a total of 16. That will not only drive amps directly, but do it at a lower impedance (75). This lower impedance is likely what's helping the SELECT preamp module handle amps better than the REF.
 
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