The Power Amp is an important part of the system.

[nicoff]

I'd go along with that but perhaps (particularly considering the readership of the forum), I'd suggest a $1000 amp with $10,000 speakers and vice versa. The difference between a carefully chosen $1K amp and a $10K one will turn out to be small compared with the $1K vs $10K speaker.


I'd omit Room as you are stuck with it, but the equipment choice is very dependent on the room's features, so:

Speaker TYPE - Speakers - Amplifier - Source, particularly if digital.

Get it right - with ideal speaker placement and setup, and consideration of furnishings, carpets, etc - and no DSP should be introduced.

I've promoted the amplifier, but perhaps those analogue fans may give greater empasis to their crazy-priced turntables over amplifier!

So… you are stuck with the room and yet insist on no DSP?
That’s the equivalent of fighting with one hand tied behind your back!

 

[Hear Here]

So… you are stuck with the room and yet insist on no DSP?
That’s the equivalent of fighting with one hand tied behind your back!

No, get the room fixed as far as possible with sensible furnishings, carpets, etc (and perhaps bespoke "treatment" if absolutely necessary) and choose speakers (type especially) that will sound good in the room that has now been significantly improved.

My own large room was dire when I bought this new-build flat, being approx semi-circular with low 7 ft 7 ceilings, floor-to-ceiling glazing on most of the curved wall and hard floors. It had very high reverberation and all-round poor sound. Some speakers were unlistenable to initially. With furnishings, etc and careful choice of speakers, I reckon the sound is pretty good now, and certainly better without applying DSP. I’ve used Dirac, Anthem, MARS and RoomPerfect and always the sound is improved with the filter disengaged.

When you think about it, DSP is a Signal Processor, meaning that the signal is processed such that your amplifier's nice accurate output is deliberately made inaccurate to pander to the poorly treated room, or the poorly chosen or poorly set up speakers. The precious signal should be spared as much processing as possible, so no tone controls, graphic equalisers or any other processor.

To illustrate that DSP damages the signal, try this. Find a piece of music with little bass but plenty of “tingle-factor” top end. Play it via high quality speakers capable of providing this tingle-factor and listen carefully to the top end, with a DSP filter engaged and then with no filter. Although the DSP may not be able to ADJUST these higher frequencies, the fact that the entire frequency range has to pass though the filter (if it’s feeding a full-range amp), the top end suffers and a little of the tingle factor is lost. I’ve tested this many times with other listeners who don’t know if the filter is engaged or not, and most agree that the sound is more life-like and exciting with no filter, even though the bass may be a little flatter if measured with REW. I’d be interested in your own conclusion by doing this simple experiment, if you have suitable speakers chosen carefully for a room that has been thoughtfully furnished.

 

[nicoff]

.....

When you think about it, DSP is a Signal Processor, meaning that the signal is processed such that your amplifier's nice accurate output is deliberately made inaccurate to pander to the poorly treated room, or the poorly chosen or poorly set up speakers. The precious signal should be spared as much processing as possible, so no tone controls, graphic equalisers or any other processor.

....

I prompted ChatGPT for a reply to your paragraph. ChatGPT replied as follows:

The premise sounds intuitive, but it ignores what actually reaches your ears.

The goal isn’t to preserve the electrical signal at the amplifier’s output—it’s to reproduce the original acoustic event as accurately as possible at the listening position. If the room or the speaker alters the frequency response by ±10 dB (which is common), then the “pure” amplifier signal is already producing a very inaccurate acoustic result.

DSP doesn’t make the sound less accurate; it can make the acoustic output more accurate by compensating for known errors in the speaker/room system. It’s no different in principle than correcting lens distortion in photography or calibrating a scientific instrument.

In fact, every loudspeaker designer “processes” the signal with crossover networks, driver equalization, baffle-step compensation, and other filters. DSP simply allows those corrections to be implemented more precisely and with greater flexibility.

The signal coming out of the amplifier isn’t the goal. The sound arriving at your ears is.

I agree with ChatGPT.

 

[JCS123]

Here’s a thought experiment:

In your own room, connect your Constellation amplifier to the cheapest speakers you can find (even something as basic as an Amazon Echo-sized speaker or an inexpensive pair of bookshelf speakers). Listen for a while.

Then reverse the experiment. Connect a very inexpensive amplifier (like say $100 Fosi) to your regular speakers in the same room.

After you’ve done both, ask yourself which change had the greater impact on the sound.

To me, that illustrates the real hierarchy of importance. The speakers and the room dominate what you hear. Once an amplifier is competently designed and operating within its limits, improvements become comparatively small.

Large, beautifully built amplifiers certainly have their appeal, but today they are no longer a prerequisite for excellent sound.

One thing that has always puzzled me is that many magazine reviews devoted page after page to electronics while giving only passing mention to the room—arguably the single biggest contributor to what reaches our ears.

If I had to rank the factors by their audible impact in a well-functioning system, it would be:

Room → Speakers → Source/DSP → Amplifier (assuming competent design and adequate power).

Others may rank the last two differently, but I think very few blind listening tests would support putting the amplifier at the top of that list.

That would be an interesting experiment. I don't have a Constellation amp nor a real cheap amp, and most of the inexpensive speakers that I have on hand actually cost more than my LRS's. But I get your point.

Maybe changing amps makes a bigger difference at my blue-collar level than at the Constellation level.

I will acknowledge that swapping planar speakers in for box speakers makes more of a difference to me than swapping similarly-priced amps.

If and when time permits, I'll see if I can borrow a cheap amp and speakers from a friend or two and give this experiment a try.

 

[JCS123]

I have changed the title of the thread as a result of the accumulation of constructive information and ideas that all of you have contributed, and I thank you kindly for all of them.

 

[Mikado463]

I have changed the title of the thread as a result of the accumulation of constructive information and ideas that all of you have contributed, and I thank you kindly for all of them.

ahhhhhh , Darwin lives for another day

 

[Mr Peabody]

No, get the room fixed as far as possible with sensible furnishings, carpets, etc (and perhaps bespoke "treatment" if absolutely necessary) and choose speakers (type especially) that will sound good in the room that has now been significantly improved.

My own large room was dire when I bought this new-build flat, being approx semi-circular with low 7 ft 7 ceilings, floor-to-ceiling glazing on most of the curved wall and hard floors. It had very high reverberation and all-round poor sound. Some speakers were unlistenable to initially. With furnishings, etc and careful choice of speakers, I reckon the sound is pretty good now, and certainly better without applying DSP. I’ve used Dirac, Anthem, MARS and RoomPerfect and always the sound is improved with the filter disengaged.

When you think about it, DSP is a Signal Processor, meaning that the signal is processed such that your amplifier's nice accurate output is deliberately made inaccurate to pander to the poorly treated room, or the poorly chosen or poorly set up speakers. The precious signal should be spared as much processing as possible, so no tone controls, graphic equalisers or any other processor.

To illustrate that DSP damages the signal, try this. Find a piece of music with little bass but plenty of “tingle-factor” top end. Play it via high quality speakers capable of providing this tingle-factor and listen carefully to the top end, with a DSP filter engaged and then with no filter. Although the DSP may not be able to ADJUST these higher frequencies, the fact that the entire frequency range has to pass though the filter (if it’s feeding a full-range amp), the top end suffers and a little of the tingle factor is lost. I’ve tested this many times with other listeners who don’t know if the filter is engaged or not, and most agree that the sound is more life-like and exciting with no filter, even though the bass may be a little flatter if measured with REW. I’d be interested in your own conclusion by doing this simple experiment, if you have suitable speakers chosen carefully for a room that has been thoughtfully furnished.

You can't treat the room first without the speakers. How would you know where first reflections were or how the speaker would interact with the room.

 

[Mr Peabody]

That would be an interesting experiment. I don't have a Constellation amp nor a real cheap amp, and most of the inexpensive speakers that I have on hand actually cost more than my LRS's. But I get your point.

Maybe changing amps makes a bigger difference at my blue-collar level than at the Constellation level.

I will acknowledge that swapping planar speakers in for box speakers makes more of a difference to me than swapping similarly-priced amps.

If and when time permits, I'll see if I can borrow a cheap amp and speakers from a friend or two and give this experiment a try.

don't be surprised when you do you might find the opposite as he predicts

 

[W9TR]

Electrically there is a lot going on in the speaker/amplifier interface. Most loudspeakers are non-linear loads for an amplifier. Meaning that it may take more power to create positive SPL than negative SPL, or vice versa. Loudspeaker crossover components store and release energy in electric and magnetic fields. Large impedance vs frequency changes are the norm. This power amplifier and speaker ‘matching’ is definitely a priority in creating great system synergy.

The loudspeaker-room interface is equally complex and much harder to manage. Especially with large floor standing speakers, the optimum location for uniform in-room bass response is seldomly the same as the optimal location for correct soundstage presentation. Room modes can be managed in a new build, but most of us have to place systems in rooms that are not ideal. Low frequency modes are especially problematic in that they take large amounts of absorption to sound good. That means physically large absorbers that are generally not aesthetically pleasing.

Adding subwoofers turns the audiophile into a loudspeaker designer without the knowledge and tools to make it all work well. BTW there are no ’slow’ subs, or ‘fast’ subs, but there are slow rooms for sure.

So we do the best with what we have and enjoy the results because, even if they are not perfect they are usually awesome! A look at reviewer’s systems will show just how poorly some of them are set up. And conversely how well others are set up. Yet they all enjoy them equally.

 

[Randy Myers]

This is so true. A friend who had a large room with high ceilings used Salon 2's and they always sounded great. Another friend bought Salon 2 and they just never approached the same SQ in is room. He even added the big 18" sub they had which helped some but I'm sure glad I heard the speakers in my first friend's room first or my opinion of them wouldn't be the same. Unfortunate dituation.

Not so long ago I heard my speakers require a large room. I have an open doorway in the back of the room that I think saved me. I think my speakers sound great in my room. Playing with placement helped a great deal. I do use room treatments which were like a tweak in my opinion it wasn't the earth shaking change people want to claim. In fact, if you don't get help or have the ability to hear what you are doing you can make things worse. It's like room treatments are the latest bandwagon. It's crazy I think the Auva footers made a larger improvement.

It amazes me how people don't understand the importance of the source. Like other components there can be a difference but sources are all close, there so good, blah blah. If any detail, sound quality is left at the source is just gone nothing downstream will allow that lost detail to be heard. A system needs to be balanced throughout. Your source needs to be good that signal needs to be maintained until it reaches your ears. It starts at the beginning though anything not extracted at the source is just never going to be heard. You may prefer to buy something else first but you simply can't skimp on your source.

It is true that every component has their part to play. In my view one of the most important yet most overlooked component is the pre-amp. It is literally the heart of a system. Many times, people look to combine everything into one piece and use other components that have secondary pre-amp functions, such as a DAC with a volume control. To each their own, but I have tried many such setups, and nothing compares to having a well-designed pre-amplifier!

 

[MontanaJoe]

It is true that every component has their part to play. In my view one of the most important yet most overlooked component is the pre-amp. It is literally the heart of a system. Many times, people look to combine everything into one piece and use other components that have secondary pre-amp functions, such as a DAC with a volume control. To each their own, but I have tried many such setups, and nothing compares to having a well-designed pre-amplifier!

Agree

I’ve tried “don’t need a preamp” wirh a high end DAC and it’s not even close to using a good preamp.

At best it’s temporizing until you get a preamp.

However I still stick with until you have your room optimized with whatever compromises you HAVE to live with within your room in addition to proper placement of your speakers within the room all else is secondary.

But I agree with you.

 

[Bones13]

The tubed pre-amp in my system performs the “magic” for me. Using the attenuator type volume control from my DAC worked fine, but was nowhere near the sound of using the pre-amp in the chain, and I can use the vinyl system.

 

[Mr Peabody]

It is true that every component has their part to play. In my view one of the most important yet most overlooked component is the pre-amp. It is literally the heart of a system. Many times, people look to combine everything into one piece and use other components that have secondary pre-amp functions, such as a DAC with a volume control. To each their own, but I have tried many such setups, and nothing compares to having a well-designed pre-amplifier!

I don't know if it's the heart I agree the preamp is overlooked especially today with so many DAC's offering variable outputs and calling it a preamp. In my experience a dedicated preamp has always improved sound in a system.