The Power Amp is an important part of the system.

[nicoff]

I'd go along with that but perhaps (particularly considering the readership of the forum), I'd suggest a $1000 amp with $10,000 speakers and vice versa. The difference between a carefully chosen $1K amp and a $10K one will turn out to be small compared with the $1K vs $10K speaker.


I'd omit Room as you are stuck with it, but the equipment choice is very dependent on the room's features, so:

Speaker TYPE - Speakers - Amplifier - Source, particularly if digital.

Get it right - with ideal speaker placement and setup, and consideration of furnishings, carpets, etc - and no DSP should be introduced.

I've promoted the amplifier, but perhaps those analogue fans may give greater empasis to their crazy-priced turntables over amplifier!

So… you are stuck with the room and yet insist on no DSP?
That’s the equivalent of fighting with one hand tied behind your back!

 

[Hear Here]

So… you are stuck with the room and yet insist on no DSP?
That’s the equivalent of fighting with one hand tied behind your back!

No, get the room fixed as far as possible with sensible furnishings, carpets, etc (and perhaps bespoke "treatment" if absolutely necessary) and choose speakers (type especially) that will sound good in the room that has now been significantly improved.

My own large room was dire when I bought this new-build flat, being approx semi-circular with low 7 ft 7 ceilings, floor-to-ceiling glazing on most of the curved wall and hard floors. It had very high reverberation and all-round poor sound. Some speakers were unlistenable to initially. With furnishings, etc and careful choice of speakers, I reckon the sound is pretty good now, and certainly better without applying DSP. I’ve used Dirac, Anthem, MARS and RoomPerfect and always the sound is improved with the filter disengaged.

When you think about it, DSP is a Signal Processor, meaning that the signal is processed such that your amplifier's nice accurate output is deliberately made inaccurate to pander to the poorly treated room, or the poorly chosen or poorly set up speakers. The precious signal should be spared as much processing as possible, so no tone controls, graphic equalisers or any other processor.

To illustrate that DSP damages the signal, try this. Find a piece of music with little bass but plenty of “tingle-factor” top end. Play it via high quality speakers capable of providing this tingle-factor and listen carefully to the top end, with a DSP filter engaged and then with no filter. Although the DSP may not be able to ADJUST these higher frequencies, the fact that the entire frequency range has to pass though the filter (if it’s feeding a full-range amp), the top end suffers and a little of the tingle factor is lost. I’ve tested this many times with other listeners who don’t know if the filter is engaged or not, and most agree that the sound is more life-like and exciting with no filter, even though the bass may be a little flatter if measured with REW. I’d be interested in your own conclusion by doing this simple experiment, if you have suitable speakers chosen carefully for a room that has been thoughtfully furnished.

 

[nicoff]

.....

When you think about it, DSP is a Signal Processor, meaning that the signal is processed such that your amplifier's nice accurate output is deliberately made inaccurate to pander to the poorly treated room, or the poorly chosen or poorly set up speakers. The precious signal should be spared as much processing as possible, so no tone controls, graphic equalisers or any other processor.

....

I prompted ChatGPT for a reply to your paragraph. ChatGPT replied as follows:

The premise sounds intuitive, but it ignores what actually reaches your ears.

The goal isn’t to preserve the electrical signal at the amplifier’s output—it’s to reproduce the original acoustic event as accurately as possible at the listening position. If the room or the speaker alters the frequency response by ±10 dB (which is common), then the “pure” amplifier signal is already producing a very inaccurate acoustic result.

DSP doesn’t make the sound less accurate; it can make the acoustic output more accurate by compensating for known errors in the speaker/room system. It’s no different in principle than correcting lens distortion in photography or calibrating a scientific instrument.

In fact, every loudspeaker designer “processes” the signal with crossover networks, driver equalization, baffle-step compensation, and other filters. DSP simply allows those corrections to be implemented more precisely and with greater flexibility.

The signal coming out of the amplifier isn’t the goal. The sound arriving at your ears is.

I agree with ChatGPT.

 

[JCS123]

Here’s a thought experiment:

In your own room, connect your Constellation amplifier to the cheapest speakers you can find (even something as basic as an Amazon Echo-sized speaker or an inexpensive pair of bookshelf speakers). Listen for a while.

Then reverse the experiment. Connect a very inexpensive amplifier (like say $100 Fosi) to your regular speakers in the same room.

After you’ve done both, ask yourself which change had the greater impact on the sound.

To me, that illustrates the real hierarchy of importance. The speakers and the room dominate what you hear. Once an amplifier is competently designed and operating within its limits, improvements become comparatively small.

Large, beautifully built amplifiers certainly have their appeal, but today they are no longer a prerequisite for excellent sound.

One thing that has always puzzled me is that many magazine reviews devoted page after page to electronics while giving only passing mention to the room—arguably the single biggest contributor to what reaches our ears.

If I had to rank the factors by their audible impact in a well-functioning system, it would be:

Room → Speakers → Source/DSP → Amplifier (assuming competent design and adequate power).

Others may rank the last two differently, but I think very few blind listening tests would support putting the amplifier at the top of that list.

That would be an interesting experiment. I don't have a Constellation amp nor a real cheap amp, and most of the inexpensive speakers that I have on hand actually cost more than my LRS's. But I get your point.

Maybe changing amps makes a bigger difference at my blue-collar level than at the Constellation level.

I will acknowledge that swapping planar speakers in for box speakers makes more of a difference to me than swapping similarly-priced amps.

If and when time permits, I'll see if I can borrow a cheap amp and speakers from a friend or two and give this experiment a try.

 

[JCS123]

I have changed the title of the thread as a result of the accumulation of constructive information and ideas that all of you have contributed, and I thank you kindly for all of them.

 

[Mikado463]

I have changed the title of the thread as a result of the accumulation of constructive information and ideas that all of you have contributed, and I thank you kindly for all of them.

ahhhhhh , Darwin lives for another day

 

[Mr Peabody]

No, get the room fixed as far as possible with sensible furnishings, carpets, etc (and perhaps bespoke "treatment" if absolutely necessary) and choose speakers (type especially) that will sound good in the room that has now been significantly improved.

My own large room was dire when I bought this new-build flat, being approx semi-circular with low 7 ft 7 ceilings, floor-to-ceiling glazing on most of the curved wall and hard floors. It had very high reverberation and all-round poor sound. Some speakers were unlistenable to initially. With furnishings, etc and careful choice of speakers, I reckon the sound is pretty good now, and certainly better without applying DSP. I’ve used Dirac, Anthem, MARS and RoomPerfect and always the sound is improved with the filter disengaged.

When you think about it, DSP is a Signal Processor, meaning that the signal is processed such that your amplifier's nice accurate output is deliberately made inaccurate to pander to the poorly treated room, or the poorly chosen or poorly set up speakers. The precious signal should be spared as much processing as possible, so no tone controls, graphic equalisers or any other processor.

To illustrate that DSP damages the signal, try this. Find a piece of music with little bass but plenty of “tingle-factor” top end. Play it via high quality speakers capable of providing this tingle-factor and listen carefully to the top end, with a DSP filter engaged and then with no filter. Although the DSP may not be able to ADJUST these higher frequencies, the fact that the entire frequency range has to pass though the filter (if it’s feeding a full-range amp), the top end suffers and a little of the tingle factor is lost. I’ve tested this many times with other listeners who don’t know if the filter is engaged or not, and most agree that the sound is more life-like and exciting with no filter, even though the bass may be a little flatter if measured with REW. I’d be interested in your own conclusion by doing this simple experiment, if you have suitable speakers chosen carefully for a room that has been thoughtfully furnished.

You can't treat the room first without the speakers. How would you know where first reflections were or how the speaker would interact with the room.

 

[Mr Peabody]

That would be an interesting experiment. I don't have a Constellation amp nor a real cheap amp, and most of the inexpensive speakers that I have on hand actually cost more than my LRS's. But I get your point.

Maybe changing amps makes a bigger difference at my blue-collar level than at the Constellation level.

I will acknowledge that swapping planar speakers in for box speakers makes more of a difference to me than swapping similarly-priced amps.

If and when time permits, I'll see if I can borrow a cheap amp and speakers from a friend or two and give this experiment a try.

don't be surprised when you do you might find the opposite as he predicts