The most heated debate in audio...

ohbythebay

ohbythebay

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Okay...never talk sex, politics or religion, right ?

Well the 4 horsemen of the audio apocalypse in audio are:

Solid state vs tubes
Vinyl vs Digital
Cheap cables vs quality cables

and the one I want to address...drumroll...Bi-wiring

Now bring this up on an audio board and the Hatfields and the McCoys start cleaning their rifles. My intent is not to do that..I just want to know if it is real (scientifically and in reality) or a mistake(as there are many papers to this affect also)

I am very happy with the speaker cables I built a while back ..it was a DIY low-inductance,,,yada yada..but have been tempted to try bi-wiring. I can also do it as a test without another sent of cables due to the design of these - I just remove the banana plugs on one end and split my wires (it is 8 sets that create two ends)

But why bother if its all hokum...I have seen papers for ..but more (supposed) scientific papers against. I trust the experts here because many of you (Jeff, Mike, many others) come to mind as people who have "seen it all"...

So using your Tibetan Monk voices, tell me your thoughts? Thanks...
 
Do it! now. This would really interest me as you would have bonafide real world results
 
ohbythebay said:
Okay...never talk sex, politics or religion, right ?

Well the 4 horsemen of the audio apocalypse in audio are:

Solid state vs tubes
Vinyl vs Digital
Cheap cables vs quality cables

and the one I want to address...drumroll...Bi-wiring

. . . . tell me your thoughts? Thanks...
Click to expand...

Solid state vs tubes --- ok
Vinyl vs Digital --- ok

Cheap cables vs EXPENSIVE cables----not necessarily quality cables -- OR
POORLY CONSTRUCTED cables vs quality cables

Bi-Wiring vs WHAT??? single wire??? or bi-amping ??? or something else???

You have to use actually opposing terms. Otherwise you are comparing apples and oranges.
 
GaryProtein said:
SS vs tubes --- ok
vinyl vs digital --- ok
cheap cables vs EXPENSIVE cables----not necessarily quality cables

Bi-Wiring vs WHAT??? single wire or bi-amping ???
Click to expand...

Corrections made

Cheap cables from the Walmart bin vs quality cables made with ultra pure unobtanium cryogenically treated

Single wire vs bi-wire

I guess I can just try it BUT even that has two schools of thought in :

single end going to two ends

All ends have their own wire...

SO in one case its RightRed ----> SpeakerRed1 SpeakerRed2

vs

RightRed1 ----> SpeakerRed1
RightRed1 -----> SpeakerRed2

Above using separate INDIVIDUAL wires vs 1 feeder that goes to 2
 
dlb2 said:
I could never figure out what the point of bi-wiring would be without bi-amping.
Click to expand...

Doug, I agree. I tried it many times and there was no noticeable sonic difference. That being said, I would bi-wire if I had a very long speaker cable run (35 feet+) and a very limited budget. I could buy two long runs of 18 gauge cable from Home Depot and double it up, which COULD help.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
I think in the grand scheme of things, as I LIKE my cables as they are, I am going to bag this experiment. From what I understand, it can be speaker dependent and hey, I am good like I am...would not be expecting miracles and epiphanies as I see the light and the error of my ways...LOL ..If that was the case, you guys would have pointed them out to me already :exciting:
 
At the suggestion of the shop repairing my speakers many moons ago (late 80's or early 90's) I had him bi-wire them "while he was at it." The sound improved, but I can't say why. Was it the promise of some of the benefit of bi-amping? Was it replacing the smallish DIN speaker cables with much larger, albeit Monster brand bi-wire cables? Change two things at once and you just can't know. I'm not sure if those speakers are even good candidates for bi-wiring anyway since they are pretty efficient 4 ohm, 4-ways and not bass heavy. I still have and use the speakers and the cables, but not together and neither are bi-wired, but they are in binaural applications since I do have 2 ears. In my experience bi-amp :exciting:, bi-wiring :blush:
 
my theory is my speakers have 4 binding posts why not use em. i never saw the point in using jumpers id rather use cables. if they had 2 binding posts i would not.lol. but there is really no sound difference. i havent tested it on my present speakers but i have in the past.
one exception was platinum audio solos. the little speakers that put out as much bass as anything out there no matter the size and shape. of course they are foot stompin rock and roll speakers all day and not much for anything else. but when i biwired them they had a little more well rounded sound to em.not much but it was noticeable.
if you want to test it Rob i have a inexpensive pair of 6ft biwires sitting around here i havent used in a couple years, your welcome to use them and test your speakers.
 
Steve you are awesome...I have to pass ..first because my lengths are 11 ft(I cant hold up 48lb speakers that long) and truly...I can leave well enough alone...

You are awesome for offering !!!

Go Sharks and GO SEAHAWKS !!!
 
An Electrical Engineer who builds audio gear for a hobby told me that the upper end should use a smaller gauge twisted pair and the low end a larger gauge solid core if bi wiring. (you can debate the theory of how electrons flow differently between twisted and solid core in another thread) That said, I do have a set of Tara labs Prism Bi-Wire that are all the same gauge. I have tried bi-wiring as well as bi amping (with 2 completely different amps) and hear some changes but can't say good-bad-or ugly.

I tried bi-amping my Clearfields using a Stratos for the bottom and my Conterpoint NPS400 for the top. It was odd sounding and you could hear the characteristics of each amp so it did not have synergy.

Right now I have the Prism cables doubled up on a pair of Dynaudio 42s and not used as bi-wire cables.

I think you need play around with it to satisfy your curiosity. You won't need ultra expensive cable to hear changes. If you like what you hear, you can take that slippery slope.

Let us know what you determine from your tests.
 
wisnon said:
You forgot PCM vs DSD. LoL
Click to expand...
I agree that this is the most heated discussion at the moment.

dlb2 said:
I could never figure out what the point of bi-wiring would be without bi-amping.
Click to expand...
Actually there is a very good reason for that. As you might know the bass section of the speaker can lower the impedance of under certain circumstances. This will create a feedback to the amplifier. Amplifiers have correction circuits to compensate and actually the manufacturer of my power amps explained me that the correction has less influence on the mid-high section in case of using separate wires for both sections as the feedback will go through a dedicated cable.

Here you can find an academical study (whatever that is worth). This is the conclusion.

Thus we can conclude that there may be a small effect due to bi-wiring, but the above tends to imply it may normally be so small as to have little significance. In order to say more, a detailed model of specific realistic systems, and/or some precise measurements, would be required. These might reveal a more noticeable effect in some cases, but the above taken by itself implies the effects will usually be very small if low series impedance cables are used. It is also perhaps worth bearing in mind that - even in a case where any change in frequency response is large enough to be audible - this does not establish that the bi-wired arrangement will inevitably then be “better” than using a single cable. That would depend upon the circumstances of use, and the preferences of the listener.

Of course the differences are small but that is what it is all about with all the improvements audiophiles make... In my set-up I can hear the difference. Here is my bi-wiring arrangement:
holle_banaanstekker.jpg
 
You guys are really going to force me to try this aren't you? LOL

What the heck...keeps me off the streets so I don't harass people...:reallymad:
 
As I've tried over the years to bi-wire systems. It appears that the speaker crossover is what determines whether it is beneficial or detrimental to the sound.

I would say that probably 75% of the time that using the exact same type of speaker cable to bi-wire a system it did not improve the sound. Most of the time, it degraded the "rhythm and pace" of the music.

But the bottom line is - it does make a difference, sometimes good, sometimes not so good.
 
Only reason I would bi wire anything today is to bypass the cheap nickel plated jumpers supplied by speaker manufacturers, or just feed your cables to the high pass and use a quality jumper to the low pass.
 
the professor said:
As I've tried over the years to bi-wire systems. It appears that the speaker crossover is what determines whether it is beneficial or detrimental to the sound.

I would say that probably 75% of the time that using the exact same type of speaker cable to bi-wire a system it did not improve the sound. Most of the time, it degraded the "rhythm and pace" of the music.

But the bottom line is - it does make a difference, sometimes good, sometimes not so good.
Click to expand...

Best post of this thread so far. :)
 
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