The biggest secret has been revealed?!

42b18ca7716deff5f7251f758ff88c2b.jpg



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Out of sheer curiosity, I did find at least something resembling some real information on the topic. It is in two parts. It is a discussion of piezo-electric behavior of some ceramic capacitors.

"While working on a low-noise amplifier circuit I found that the ceramic capacitors on my printed circuit board (PCB) were exhibiting piezoelectric effects and ruining the otherwise extremely low noise of the circuit. This behavior is common in non-C0G type ceramic capacitors, and to remedy the situation, I decided to test three alternative capacitor types: soft-termination ceramic, tantalum and film. All of the capacitors tested were 2.2uF surface-mount types."


Some fuel for the obsessive fire to build as some audiophiles will no doubt be stressed out over which capacitors they have in their gear. I would suggest not to... Unless you think your gear will be subjected to mechanical vibrations of the magnitude described in part 2.



Part 1. Stress-induced outbursts: Microphonics in ceramic capacitors (Part 1) - Precision Hub - Archives - TI E2E support forums


Part 2. Stress-induced outbursts: Microphonics in ceramic capacitors (Part 2) - Precision Hub - Archives - TI E2E support forums
 
TheOctopus said:
....

I take music seriously, I listen to music a lot. That's the main point of this hobby for me. That's my nirvana. My nirvana does not require $300k speakers, power conditioners and fancy power cords but if you are convinced that it does, by all means, spend away and keep spending and upgrading. Yes, I have been around the block with this hobby and owned some serious gear and built a few dedicated rooms for all that sonic horsepower. It was fun and I walked away having formulated much deeper understanding of what it is I want out of this hobby. Took me 30 years or so but I'm all set now.

....
Click to expand...

Per chance, is there any evidence you can share that would substantiate your claim that you take music seriously?

You may have a love for music but I certainly wouldn't jump to any conclusions that you take music seriously.

For example. A 5-year old child can and often times do have a love for music. But they do nothing to improve the sound quality of their music. Wasn't it you who said earlier you acquire the equipment and mission accomplished? Isn't that roughly the equivalent of what a 5-year old child might do once they've convinced their parent to spring for a little music player? Might that not be their sonic nirvana as well?

I'm not trying to be offensive here. Hopefully, I'm just trying to connect the dots you're tossing out there. I'm just saying that with what little I've observed, you seem to lack any ability to discern / interpret what you hear, perhaps like the 5-year old? The fact that you do nothing but acquire gear and mission accomplished certainly seems to substantiate my observation that you do nothing to improve the sound quality.

It would also seem that if you had any significant involvement with high-end audio over the past 30 years as you claim, I would suspect that you would have realized about 25 years ago that any playback system worth listening to (from a sound quality perspective) requires care and nurturing to achieve even a minimally reasonable musical presentation. Yet, you seem to lack this basic understanding.

And yes, I wholeheartedly agree there is a certain type of nirvana to not care about the quality of sound associated with the music we love. Life is certainly simpler that way and frees up more resources for other endeavors one may be more passionate about and it's certainly cheaper too.

But here you seem up on your perch claiming to be a lover of music, one who takes music seriously, and in a state of nirvana with what you have. Yet, anytime somebody makes any mention of any attempted effort striving toward a more musical playback presentation, which is one of the reasons this hobby exists, you mock them for their efforts, almost as if you're in some ivory tower.

What up with that? Especially when I've yet to encounter a single child music lover exhibit this kind of behavior?

BTW, what exactly do you mean when you say you take music seriously?
 
Stehno said:
Per chance, is there any evidence you can share that would substantiate your claim that you take music seriously?

You may have a love for music but I certainly wouldn't jump to any conclusions that you take music seriously.

For example. A 5-year old child can and often times do have a love for music. But they do nothing to improve the sound quality of their music. Wasn't it you who said earlier you acquire the equipment and mission accomplished? Isn't that roughly the equivalent of what a 5-year old child might do once they've convinced their parent to spring for a little music player? Might that not be their sonic nirvana as well?

I'm not trying to be offensive here. Hopefully, I'm just trying to connect the dots you're tossing out there. I'm just saying that with what little I've observed, you seem to lack any ability to discern / interpret what you hear, perhaps like the 5-year old? The fact that you do nothing but acquire gear and mission accomplished certainly seems to substantiate my observation that you do nothing to improve the sound quality.

It would also seem that if you had any significant involvement with high-end audio over the past 30 years as you claim, I would suspect that you would have realized about 25 years ago that any playback system worth listening to (from a sound quality perspective) requires care and nurturing to achieve even a minimally reasonable musical presentation. Yet, you seem to lack this basic understanding.

And yes, I wholeheartedly agree there is a certain type of nirvana to not care about the quality of sound associated with the music we love. Life is certainly simpler that way and frees up more resources for other endeavors one may be more passionate about and it's certainly cheaper too.

But here you seem up on your perch claiming to be a lover of music, one who takes music seriously, and in a state of nirvana with what you have. Yet, anytime somebody makes any mention of any attempted effort striving toward a more musical playback presentation, which is one of the reasons this hobby exists, you mock them for their efforts, almost as if you're in some ivory tower.

What up with that? Especially when I've yet to encounter a single child music lover exhibit this kind of behavior?

BTW, what exactly do you mean when you say you take music seriously?
Click to expand...

A cogent and reasonable post.
 
Stehno said:
Per chance, is there any evidence you can share that would substantiate your claim that you take music seriously?

You may have a love for music but I certainly wouldn't jump to any conclusions that you take music seriously.

For example. A 5-year old child can and often times do have a love for music. But they do nothing to improve the sound quality of their music. Wasn't it you who said earlier you acquire the equipment and mission accomplished? Isn't that roughly the equivalent of what a 5-year old child might do once they've convinced their parent to spring for a little music player? Might that not be their sonic nirvana as well?

I'm not trying to be offensive here. Hopefully, I'm just trying to connect the dots you're tossing out there. I'm just saying that with what little I've observed, you seem to lack any ability to discern / interpret what you hear, perhaps like the 5-year old? The fact that you do nothing but acquire gear and mission accomplished certainly seems to substantiate my observation that you do nothing to improve the sound quality.

It would also seem that if you had any significant involvement with high-end audio over the past 30 years as you claim, I would suspect that you would have realized about 25 years ago that any playback system worth listening to (from a sound quality perspective) requires care and nurturing to achieve even a minimally reasonable musical presentation. Yet, you seem to lack this basic understanding.

And yes, I wholeheartedly agree there is a certain type of nirvana to not care about the quality of sound associated with the music we love. Life is certainly simpler that way and frees up more resources for other endeavors one may be more passionate about and it's certainly cheaper too.

But here you seem up on your perch claiming to be a lover of music, one who takes music seriously, and in a state of nirvana with what you have. Yet, anytime somebody makes any mention of any attempted effort striving toward a more musical playback presentation, which is one of the reasons this hobby exists, you mock them for their efforts, almost as if you're in some ivory tower.

What up with that? Especially when I've yet to encounter a single child music lover exhibit this kind of behavior?

BTW, what exactly do you mean when you say you take music seriously?
Click to expand...


You win the "least intelligent post of the thread award" for this one and I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I guess the majority of musicians who are not audiophiles and most ARE NOT audiophiles, must not be serious about music?



If you followed what I said earlier, I did mention I had "serious gear" so that by definition is caring about music. What did I imply by serious? How about 6 different pairs of Sonus Faber speakers, 5 pairs of various Wilson Audio speakers, Dynaudio, Martin Logan as well as my own hand built speakers in my youth. My current pair of speakers is Harbeth 30.2 40th anniv. Same speakers that Puma Cat the "reviewer/Snunyata ambassador" on this forum uses.


The pair of speakers before that, were the Wilson Audio Alexias with D'Agostino Momentum monoblocks in a custom built room with over $20k of acoustic treatments. Total investiment in that room with gear was over $200K. Serious enough or perhaps your personal seriousness levels exceeds it?

I am currently enjoying my Harbeths with PrimaLuna Dialogue HP integrated running in triode mode or I can fire up my Luxman L590AXII Class A integrated if I feel like solid state.

I am logging more than 60hrs a week on Roon since I have the luxury to work from home at my own pace and listen to any music I want all day long. I love streaming for that reason, it would get old cleaning and flipping records or even pulling CDs at that rate. I easily listen to 9-12 albums a day sometimes. If I feel like late night listening and don't want to disturb my wife, I have various headphones and both Tube and Class A headphone listening choices.

Now, so if we are talking "serious" and being able to discern like the connoisseurs we are.... Was my prior system "better"? In absolute terms, YES. Do I not find my current system enjoyable because I have experienced better in my life? That is like saying I can no longer enjoy food because I had that steak at Wolfgang Puck's Cut steakhouse in Vegas a few times...

Realize that there is no "BEST" it is an elusive term at best and also lets not ignore one little FACT.... If one audio system truly is a "reference" and gets everything "Right", then every other system on the planet is not a reference by definition and is "Wrong". Since 99% will not agree with that logic, we all play on our own levels of comfort and willingness to "get serious" about our hobby.

I would never judge anyone by the amount of $$$$ spent on their system but I do get impressed when I can discuss favorite music and the audiophile actually knows more than a handful of "audiophile grade recordings" and we can talk composers, performers and favorite compositions... My passion is Jazz but I listen to Classical and Blues and even some classic Rock from time to time. If anything, with all the time I do have to listen, I really do not have time to listen to everything I would want to...

I fail to see much sense in collecting shiny boxes and obsessing over vibration control if music is not the main objective. Love of music does not require expensive audio gear either, as I have alluded to at the beginning.


As it relates to the original topic, my PrimaLuna uses the not so inexpensive SCR Tinfoil Caps which are not microphonic as well as high quality Takman resistors and my tubes are still healthy. No vibrational worries on my end. YMMV... :rolleyes:
 
TheOctopus said:
I'm simply the wrong guy to be kneeling at your altar when it comes to pseudo-science if you catch my drift. There are logical and proven concepts of solid audio gear design and many manufacturers are good at it. I don't see extraordinary claims from the serious players.

When I see power cords being promoted, I can't help but to think that AC that is magnetically induced by a transformer, rectified, filtered and stored by the power supply to be used at the voltage rails has very little to do with a few milliohms of a difference between them.

But you don't need to waste your time convincing me about power cords, I would have rather listened to what great lengths you go to to protect your gear from vibrations, what quality components you use in them, how you select tubes, how you test them, what you have discovered in your journey of audio gear design and the sound of "vibration". What does it sound like by the way. How do vibrations manifest themselves within the context of say an amplifier if it not the tubes but capacitors, resistors, inductors, etc. Do they all sound different or similar? Any advice on how to address them? How does one "tune" the sound with vibrational control. Surely there must be a vector for that?

I know, lots of questions...


Have a good one Mr.Ralph and keep building that gear that stirs the soul.
Click to expand...
I think the biggest issue that you have to overcome to support your position about vibration is the simple fact that the word 'microphonic' is a thing, which apparently has been around longer than your entire career.

As a side note about power cords I'm not a fan of expensive power cords, but I can very easily demonstrate with a DVM and a dummy load (for a power amplifier) that voltage drops occur across power cords and is why they have audible effects. If you can stand another anecdote, we had an amplifier measured by Bascomb King about 22 years ago. We rate the amp at 140watts RMS and he only got 100 out of it. When we got it back, I immediately put in on the bench to find out why. Now we spec the amp at 120VAC; and to do that we measure the voltage at the IEC connection while the amp is at full power. I set the variac to 120VAC and sure enough, the amp only made 100 watts. So I measured the voltage at the IEC connector and found it to be about 117volts. So I increased the voltage on the variac until I was reading 120VAC at the IEC and at that point the amp was making the 140watt spec. The roughly 3 volt drop was robbing the amp of 40 watts. This isn't surprising, given that if you let the amp run for an hour, the power cord itself is warm. That is why we installed IEC connectors- so you're not stuck with a particular power cord.

We've made power cords that are considerably heavier (and also not particularly expensive) and our customers comment that they like the sound. When you see 28% of the power gone out of an amplifier, there are other knock-on effects like increased output impedance and distortion. So it should be no surprise that power cords can have an audible effect. But a good cord does not have to be crazy money and we can also conclude that lower powered solid state gear is far less likely to be influenced by a power cord, although a high powered solid state setup will be easily affected. Its just Ohm's Law.

Returning to your position on vibration, you may notice that when I pointed out that Scully went to great lengths to prevent vibration from affecting an LP mastering lathe, you backed off a bit and from that point on excluded mechanical reproducers from the conversation. So I crossed that line in the sand and talked about Ampex; then you acknowledged tubes were out. I then posted a link to a Wiki page on the topic when you complained that no-one was able to show any links or proof on the topic. Then it was how capacitors can be microphonic and so you came up with some links confirming that certain caps can indeed have microphonic effects...

Do you see how your position has been eroded? Now I do concede that over time, all components have gotten much better at reducing microphonic effects with the exception of tubes, which are probably worse these days. I'll also point out that your comments about NASA and your work with computers are Red Herrings, on account of NASA took great pains to prevent microphonics from causing problems in their early telemetry by using FM modulation. Later it appears they went to a digital system and like computers, that's helpful for reducing microphonic effects. In audio, we're still working with analog devices: amps, preamps, tuners, tape machines and the like and while they have improved, vibration is still a thing. I've seen microphonic semiconductors, resistors, capacitors and inductors. I don't think I've ever found an electrolytic to be microphonic, nor can I recall seeing that in transformers. And you can seriously make the argument that the components where I've seen this were defective and I would not argue. But right there is a bit of a slippery slope: how defective is the part if the component in which its lurks is easily able to meet its bench specs?

If you've worked with computers a lot you may have run into the occasional noisy cable, and by this I mean one that makes noise when its disturbed. In the recording studio I've run into this many times. A long time ago, George Cardas very generously gifted me with a set of cables made for my Neumann U67s. They were 50 feet long and I shudder to think what they must have cost. But they were unusable, because the slightest mechanical disturbance of the cables resulted in a very audible sound! (not a hum or buzz; I'd best describe it as a sort of 'squishy' sound.) I've seen both balanced line and single-ended cables exhibit this phenomena (its common in multichannel snakes), but not to the extent that those cables did (Neumann mic cables contain all the power connections as the mics employ outboard power supplies, so they are a bit more complex than regular mic cables). Because of that I've kept my mouth shut when I've seen stands for cables in audio systems (and this is partly because I don't want to get into an argument; if these stands are trying to solve this problem IMO they are going about it wrong), because I've seen that cables can produce microphonic noise. Not all cables do IME (most don't have any issues at all) and I simply replace the cable if I find one that is making noise due to physical motion (and to be clear, I'm not talking about a cable that simply has a bad connection somewhere).

Regarding our own preamps, we recognized vibration as a problem early on. Because I worked with Ampex gear while in college, when our first preamp was designed it employed isomeric isolation between the chassis and circuit boards. I was never a fan of fancy expensive front panels but then I discovered that a thicker front panel resonates at a different frequency from the chassis and if they are rigidly coupled the result is a far more dead enclosure. Additionally we offer a damping package that uses a variety of materials to further deaden the chassis. The effects of this are easily heard and measured. At any rate those thicker front panels turned out to be more than just bling. And there's no 'tuning'; if you are doing that you are dealing with a resonance.
 
I've been following this thread and was about to put in my 2c regarding the disjointed comments equating one's level of gear obsession with one's level of music appreciation -- but Octopus responded for himself just fine!

I don't know if vibrations within components is a serious sound quality issue or not. Some people I respect say it is.

But what strikes me about this thread is how fragile and defensive the audiophile tribe can be when their particular world view is challenged.
 
I haven’t kept up with this thread entirely, but I’ve enjoyed Ralph’s posts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
atmasphere said:
I think the biggest issue that you have to overcome to support your position about vibration is the simple fact that the word 'microphonic' is a thing, which apparently has been around longer than your entire career.

As a side note about power cords I'm not a fan of expensive power cords, but I can very easily demonstrate with a DVM and a dummy load (for a power amplifier) that voltage drops occur across power cords and is why they have audible effects. If you can stand another anecdote, we had an amplifier measured by Bascomb King about 22 years ago. We rate the amp at 140watts RMS and he only got 100 out of it. When we got it back, I immediately put in on the bench to find out why. Now we spec the amp at 120VAC; and to do that we measure the voltage at the IEC connection while the amp is at full power. I set the variac to 120VAC and sure enough, the amp only made 100 watts. So I measured the voltage at the IEC connector and found it to be about 117volts. So I increased the voltage on the variac until I was reading 120VAC at the IEC and at that point the amp was making the 140watt spec. The roughly 3 volt drop was robbing the amp of 40 watts. This isn't surprising, given that if you let the amp run for an hour, the power cord itself is warm. That is why we installed IEC connectors- so you're not stuck with a particular power cord.

We've made power cords that are considerably heavier (and also not particularly expensive) and our customers comment that they like the sound. When you see 28% of the power gone out of an amplifier, there are other knock-on effects like increased output impedance and distortion. So it should be no surprise that power cords can have an audible effect. But a good cord does not have to be crazy money and we can also conclude that lower powered solid state gear is far less likely to be influenced by a power cord, although a high powered solid state setup will be easily affected. Its just Ohm's Law.

Returning to your position on vibration, you may notice that when I pointed out that Scully went to great lengths to prevent vibration from affecting an LP mastering lathe, you backed off a bit and from that point on excluded mechanical reproducers from the conversation. So I crossed that line in the sand and talked about Ampex; then you acknowledged tubes were out. I then posted a link to a Wiki page on the topic when you complained that no-one was able to show any links or proof on the topic. Then it was how capacitors can be microphonic and so you came up with some links confirming that certain caps can indeed have microphonic effects...

Do you see how your position has been eroded? Now I do concede that over time, all components have gotten much better at reducing microphonic effects with the exception of tubes, which are probably worse these days. I'll also point out that your comments about NASA and your work with computers are Red Herrings, on account of NASA took great pains to prevent microphonics from causing problems in their early telemetry by using FM modulation. Later it appears they went to a digital system and like computers, that's helpful for reducing microphonic effects. In audio, we're still working with analog devices: amps, preamps, tuners, tape machines and the like and while they have improved, vibration is still a thing. I've seen microphonic semiconductors, resistors, capacitors and inductors. I don't think I've ever found an electrolytic to be microphonic, nor can I recall seeing that in transformers. And you can seriously make the argument that the components where I've seen this were defective and I would not argue. But right there is a bit of a slippery slope: how defective is the part if the component in which its lurks is easily able to meet its bench specs?

If you've worked with computers a lot you may have run into the occasional noisy cable, and by this I mean one that makes noise when its disturbed. In the recording studio I've run into this many times. A long time ago, George Cardas very generously gifted me with a set of cables made for my Neumann U67s. They were 50 feet long and I shudder to think what they must have cost. But they were unusable, because the slightest mechanical disturbance of the cables resulted in a very audible sound! (not a hum or buzz; I'd best describe it as a sort of 'squishy' sound.) I've seen both balanced line and single-ended cables exhibit this phenomena (its common in multichannel snakes), but not to the extent that those cables did (Neumann mic cables contain all the power connections as the mics employ outboard power supplies, so they are a bit more complex than regular mic cables). Because of that I've kept my mouth shut when I've seen stands for cables in audio systems (and this is partly because I don't want to get into an argument; if these stands are trying to solve this problem IMO they are going about it wrong), because I've seen that cables can produce microphonic noise. Not all cables do IME (most don't have any issues at all) and I simply replace the cable if I find one that is making noise due to physical motion (and to be clear, I'm not talking about a cable that simply has a bad connection somewhere).

Regarding our own preamps, we recognized vibration as a problem early on. Because I worked with Ampex gear while in college, when our first preamp was designed it employed isomeric isolation between the chassis and circuit boards. I was never a fan of fancy expensive front panels but then I discovered that a thicker front panel resonates at a different frequency from the chassis and if they are rigidly coupled the result is a far more dead enclosure. Additionally we offer a damping package that uses a variety of materials to further deaden the chassis. The effects of this are easily heard and measured. At any rate those thicker front panels turned out to be more than just bling. And there's no 'tuning'; if you are doing that you are dealing with a resonance.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing your experience and thoughts on the topic. I will respond with a few points.

A power cord is not excluded from Ohm's Law... But laws and rules are sometimes broken? Superconductors ARE excluded from OHMs law. You talk about the voltage drop and having adequate gauge of conductors to realize full potential. I agree. A power cord has to be sufficient to meet specs as advertised if it is included. At the same time, let's not ignore the often cheap FUSE after the power cord that also heats up and its cold resistance is different from its HOT resistance... The dichotomy of having a multi-thousand dollar power cord with an often rather cheap FUSE in line with the whole equation is a bit absurd NO?



My career with electronics was indeed brief. I was field rep that would fix computers and then became one of the most valuable bench techs because I was the only one that actually could troubleshoot and diagnose down to component level, while the other techs were field "board swappers" and would bring them back to me from the field to fix...

I had a lot of fun with electronics but I went back for further education and changed over to medical field where my passion for electronic equipment was fused with medicine and diagnostic imaging of patients utilizing multi-million dollar equipment to get a glimpse into a human body from the inside... That always fascinated me and I enjoyed my career. I often discussed many topics with the medical equipment engineers and since I was working with equipment that was utilizing "superconductors", which always intrigued me, there were many great conversations that took place.

You see, when you have power cables resembling actual Anaconda for a "real reason", that actually can physically move from the pulsing gradients of the superconductor magnet, which is providing 1.5 Tesla or 30,000 times the strength of the magnetic field of the Earth and the power pulses or "switching currents" flowing through the cables that are actually "audible", well, power cords for my 35w in Triode mode power amplifier is just silly by comparison... So do vibration levels of my PrimaLuna sitting perched on its rack with about 65-75dB of Jazz softly playing in the background...

Not to say that any of that is not important in audio, it is but we do like to overdramatize things in audio which is often used for the obvious and in my opinion "as a person who values honesty and integrity in people", simply used for the bad marketing and exploitation of certain concepts as well as straight up pseudo-science claims and some pure snake oil in the traditional sense of the word, for $$$$ profit.... As if a $10K power cord will rock anyone's world in the context of any system...


But I digress...


NASA was an example used because I thought it would be an extreme and obvious application of putting electronic components to the test. Stress, vibration, shockwaves, temperature extremes, glitch inducing levels of radiation....

If NASA can get around those, surely we can get around the bit of microphonics present in some low grade or poor choice for the application components. Place your creations on a shaker table and break out the oscilloscope before calling the project done? :scholar:


What does NASA do?


The primary purpose of most dynamic tests of spacecraft is the simulation of the flight dynamic
environments, which are typically so severe as to cause failure of electronic components,
mechanisms, optics, and structures that were not specifically designed to survive these
environments (NASA-HDBK-7005, Dynamic Environmental Criteria).

These high levels of
vibration and sound are generated by the launch vehicle and other sources, such as the firing of
pyrotechnic devices or the impact of a spacecraft landing, as in the case of the Mars Exploration
Rover (MER) spacecraft (Coleman and Davis, 2004).

In the case of flight microphonics, which
are vibrations caused by the operation of on-board equipment, the vibration test levels are
usually not so high as to cause failure but rather degradation in the performance of sensitive
instruments.

The most straightforward way of testing for these dynamic environments would be
to exactly simulate the flight environment, but this is not appropriate in most cases. Rather, the
tests typically represent a simulation of the dynamic environments defined from a statistical
analysis of many missions and many different operational conditions.

It is also common practice
to define the flight environments using descriptors that can be reasonably specified and
controlled, e.g., random vibration power spectral densities (PSDs), one-third octave band
acoustic levels, or shock response spectra (SRSs) (NASA-HDBK-7005).



There isn't much more to add other than if I was an Audio Designer, I would certainly pay attention and run some tests to see how audible vibration levels really are and document my findings. If the oscilloscope is not showing much action from a preamp/amp being on a shaker table, then there is nothing to worry about? :) If it is, we can narrow it down and take care of it with either good isolation measures such as the steps you mentioned in your creations or we switch to higher level, microphonic free products.

My own PrimaLuna uses French Tinfoil caps SCR and since I am happy with the resolution, musicality and engagement qualities of my integrated, I assume the vibrations are not manifesting anything worth talking about in my own system. :audiophile:
 
TheOctopus said:
A power cord is not excluded from Ohm's Law... But laws and rules are sometimes broken? Superconductors ARE excluded from OHMs law. You talk about the voltage drop and having adequate gauge of conductors to realize full potential. I agree. A power cord has to be sufficient to meet specs as advertised if it is included. At the same time, let's not ignore the often cheap FUSE after the power cord that also heats up and its cold resistance is different from its HOT resistance... The dichotomy of having a multi-thousand dollar power cord with an often rather cheap FUSE in line with the whole equation is a bit absurd NO?



My career with electronics was indeed brief. I was field rep that would fix computers and then became one of the most valuable bench techs because I was the only one that actually could troubleshoot and diagnose down to component level, while the other techs were field "board swappers" and would bring them back to me from the field to fix...

I had a lot of fun with electronics but I went back for further education and changed over to medical field where my passion for electronic equipment was fused with medicine and diagnostic imaging of patients utilizing multi-million dollar equipment to get a glimpse into a human body from the inside... That always fascinated me and I enjoyed my career. I often discussed many topics with the medical equipment engineers and since I was working with equipment that was utilizing "superconductors", which always intrigued me, there were many great conversations that took place.

You see, when you have power cables resembling actual Anaconda for a "real reason", that actually can physically move from the pulsing gradients of the superconductor magnet, which is providing 1.5 Tesla or 30,000 times the strength of the magnetic field of the Earth and the power pulses or "switching currents" flowing through the cables that are actually "audible", well, power cords for my 35w in Triode mode power amplifier is just silly by comparison... So do vibration levels of my PrimaLuna sitting perched on its rack with about 65-75dB of Jazz softly playing in the background...

Not to say that any of that is not important in audio, it is but we do like to overdramatize things in audio which is often used for the obvious and in my opinion "as a person who values honesty and integrity in people", simply used for the bad marketing and exploitation of certain concepts as well as straight up pseudo-science claims and some pure snake oil in the traditional sense of the word, for $$$$ profit.... As if a $10K power cord will rock anyone's world in the context of any system...


But I digress...


NASA was an example used because I thought it would be an extreme and obvious application of putting electronic components to the test. Stress, vibration, shockwaves, temperature extremes, glitch inducing levels of radiation....

If NASA can get around those, surely we can get around the bit of microphonics present in some low grade or poor choice for the application components. Place your creations on a shaker table and break out the oscilloscope before calling the project done? :scholar:


What does NASA do?


The primary purpose of most dynamic tests of spacecraft is the simulation of the flight dynamic
environments, which are typically so severe as to cause failure of electronic components,
mechanisms, optics, and structures that were not specifically designed to survive these
environments (NASA-HDBK-7005, Dynamic Environmental Criteria).

These high levels of
vibration and sound are generated by the launch vehicle and other sources, such as the firing of
pyrotechnic devices or the impact of a spacecraft landing, as in the case of the Mars Exploration
Rover (MER) spacecraft (Coleman and Davis, 2004).

In the case of flight microphonics, which
are vibrations caused by the operation of on-board equipment, the vibration test levels are
usually not so high as to cause failure but rather degradation in the performance of sensitive
instruments.

The most straightforward way of testing for these dynamic environments would be
to exactly simulate the flight environment, but this is not appropriate in most cases. Rather, the
tests typically represent a simulation of the dynamic environments defined from a statistical
analysis of many missions and many different operational conditions.

It is also common practice
to define the flight environments using descriptors that can be reasonably specified and
controlled, e.g., random vibration power spectral densities (PSDs), one-third octave band
acoustic levels, or shock response spectra (SRSs) (NASA-HDBK-7005).



There isn't much more to add other than if I was an Audio Designer, I would certainly pay attention and run some tests to see how audible vibration levels really are and document my findings. If the oscilloscope is not showing much action from a preamp/amp being on a shaker table, then there is nothing to worry about? :) If it is, we can narrow it down and take care of it with either good isolation measures such as the steps you mentioned in your creations or we switch to higher level, microphonic free products.

My own PrimaLuna uses French Tinfoil caps SCR and since I am happy with the resolution, musicality and engagement qualities of my integrated, I assume the vibrations are not manifesting anything worth talking about in my own system. :audiophile:
Click to expand...
I agree with that last statement!

As annoying as it is (when you see that there is something to the 'fusers'), its easy enough to measure the voltage drop across a fuse holder. I stay away from boutique fuses though as we've seen them not blow at the rated value, not available in slow blow, not available in the correct rating, and some have a Teflon tube around the element, allowing it to continue to conduct as the metal goes from solid to molten and beyond. Because of the lower voltage drop I expect less effect from a fuse. I prefer Buss or Littlefuse and that is what we recommend to our customers. Voltage drop (and its resulting heat) is also why people often garner improvement by replacing duplex outlets with higher quality units like Hubble.

When the volume is so low you're certainly not going to get much in the way of vibration or power cords. Being a rocker from the 70s I often play the volume quite high even on classical bits (I played bass in several orchestras). Sometimes I need the volume to be convinced. At those higher sound pressures is when vibration starts to make itself known. At least for the present, its apparent my gear is drawing more power than yours which makes the power cords more critical.

The NASA stuff is interesting but a Red Herring, owing to their techniques designed to prevent vibration from being a problem.

We don't even use NASA soldering techniques! They work great in space, but if your product has to be reliable in a tropical environment you don't do things that way.
 
atmasphere said:
I agree with that last statement!

As annoying as it is (when you see that there is something to the 'fusers'), its easy enough to measure the voltage drop across a fuse holder. I stay away from boutique fuses though as we've seen them not blow at the rated value, not available in slow blow, not available in the correct rating, and some have a Teflon tube around the element, allowing it to continue to conduct as the metal goes from solid to molten and beyond. Because of the lower voltage drop I expect less effect from a fuse. I prefer Buss or Littlefuse and that is what we recommend to our customers. Voltage drop (and its resulting heat) is also why people often garner improvement by replacing duplex outlets with higher quality units like Hubble.

When the volume is so low you're certainly not going to get much in the way of vibration or power cords. Being a rocker from the 70s I often play the volume quite high even on classical bits (I played bass in several orchestras). Sometimes I need the volume to be convinced. At those higher sound pressures is when vibration starts to make itself known. At least for the present, its apparent my gear is drawing more power than yours which makes the power cords more critical.

The NASA stuff is interesting but a Red Herring, owing to their techniques designed to prevent vibration from being a problem.

We don't even use NASA soldering techniques! They work great in space, but if your product has to be reliable in a tropical environment you don't do things that way.
Click to expand...

I used Mil-Spec soldering techniques and still do for my other hobbies. I had to learn while working for a company that was a supplier for DoD with all kinds of devices that no one but the engineers were ever privy to know. So I had no idea what it was that I was soldering and assembling... :ninja:


My amps are indeed non demanding but I did manage to melt a power cord by accident with my other hobby. Pulled a 10 amp rated cord off the shelf and realized it only after it started to stink that something was going wrong... Not much leeway with those cheaper Amazon cords since I was only pulling 12.5 amps continuous.

It was a fun thread and I am a firm believer in an open dialogue among like minded enthusiasts that will either agree to disagree or find some common ground.

Happy listening to everyone and may the Tin Whiskers phenomena never inflict your audio gear :D
 
Willco said:
But what strikes me about this thread is how fragile and defensive the audiophile tribe can be when their particular world view is challenged.
Click to expand...

Of course "we" are! With all due respect to Mike, who is the owner of the forum and whom I am grateful to let me be a member of, this is "our" space, where "we" share the taste for audio.
This type of troll attitude that denies everything and requires evidence for everything (although in reality, of course, don´t want to be convinced of anything because it is based on absolute truths), has spoiled the good atmosphere in several spaces all over the world.
This space has managed to escape that, perhaps because the reference to sharks is scary. :)
I would never participate in a forum whose goals I did not share, let alone to be against and try to ridicule the beliefs of its members, their convictions, their dreams.
If the world depended on this type of people, it had long since crystallized in terms of discoveries and advances.
Fortunately the world moves forward with people like atmasphere who, with an open mind, take charge of making their journey of discovery and putting it into practice.

I admire the patience of trying to wield arguments in such a way as not to let the negativistic discourse get the upper hand.
But I have no patience. For example, I no longer discuss whether cables have an influence. I agree to discuss and learn why they make a difference, types of conductors, geometry of construction, etc.
I repeat, I have no patience. I'm out!
 
TheOctopus said:
You win the "least intelligent post of the thread award" for this one and I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I guess the majority of musicians who are not audiophiles and most ARE NOT audiophiles, must not be serious about music?

If you followed what I said earlier, I did mention I had "serious gear" so that by definition is caring about music. What did I imply by serious? How about 6 different pairs of Sonus Faber speakers, 5 pairs of various Wilson Audio speakers, Dynaudio, Martin Logan as well as my own hand built speakers in my youth. My current pair of speakers is Harbeth 30.2 40th anniv. Same speakers that Puma Cat the "reviewer/Snunyata ambassador" on this forum uses.


The pair of speakers before that, were the Wilson Audio Alexias with D'Agostino Momentum monoblocks in a custom built room with over $20k of acoustic treatments. Total investiment in that room with gear was over $200K. Serious enough or perhaps your personal seriousness levels exceeds it?

I am currently enjoying my Harbeths with PrimaLuna Dialogue HP integrated running in triode mode or I can fire up my Luxman L590AXII Class A integrated if I feel like solid state.

I am logging more than 60hrs a week on Roon since I have the luxury to work from home at my own pace and listen to any music I want all day long. I love streaming for that reason, it would get old cleaning and flipping records or even pulling CDs at that rate. I easily listen to 9-12 albums a day sometimes. If I feel like late night listening and don't want to disturb my wife, I have various headphones and both Tube and Class A headphone listening choices.

Now, so if we are talking "serious" and being able to discern like the connoisseurs we are.... Was my prior system "better"? In absolute terms, YES. Do I not find my current system enjoyable because I have experienced better in my life? That is like saying I can no longer enjoy food because I had that steak at Wolfgang Puck's Cut steakhouse in Vegas a few times...

....
Click to expand...

Least intelligent post? If I'm wrong, I'd agree with you 100%. However, I'm bettin' I'm right about this.

I hope you understand when I say your word that you take music seriously is not exactly evidence to support your claim that you take music seriously.

More importantly, possessions alone are not evidence that somebody takes a matter seriously. For example. Some of the most passionate people for food are those that have little or none.

Moreover, you say that you would never judge anybody by the amount they spend. Nor should you or anybody. Yet it seems that's exactly how you're asking us to judge you. I don't get that.

Taking a matter seriously, primarily how passionate one may be, is about attitude and commitment and performing due dilengence and ususally the best evidence to demonstrate how serious (passionate) one claims to be is by their efforts and attempts to improve matters including failures and successes and their results. Not by their possessions. But in your case, using your own words, you acquire product and mission accomplished.

I'm stickiin' to my guns on this one. You're a music lover.
 
Stehno said:
Least intelligent post? If I'm wrong, I'd agree with you 100%. However, I'm bettin' I'm right about this.

I hope you understand when I say your word that you take music seriously is not exactly evidence to support your claim that you take music seriously.

More importantly, possessions alone are not evidence that somebody takes a matter seriously. For example. Some of the most passionate people for food are those that have little or none.

Moreover, you say that you would never judge anybody by the amount they spend. Nor should you or anybody. Yet it seems that's exactly how you're asking us to judge you. I don't get that.

Taking a matter seriously, primarily how passionate one may be, is about attitude and commitment and performing due dilengence and ususally the best evidence to demonstrate how serious (passionate) one claims to be is by their efforts and attempts to improve matters including failures and successes and their results. Not by their possessions. But in your case, using your own words, you acquire product and mission accomplished.

I'm stickiin' to my guns on this one. You're a music lover.
Click to expand...

I am a music lover. I'll take that as a compliment. Many musicians are not audiophiles and do not have audio gear into the 5 or 6 figures yet they are the creators of the very music you and I enjoy. But we are in this hobby for more than just the music...

Being an "audiophile", gear was obviously always important and so was optimizing the system.

Over the 30 years of being in the hobby, I now have a very clear understanding of what constitutes good "system synergy" to my ears. Keep in mind that part is always very subjective and personal.

It was not learned by acquiring one pair of speakers and calling it done. I already mentioned I had a few dozen different speakers and even more gear of brands from just about A-Z... The quest for that perfect sound was very much the goal.

If I did not own it, I auditioned it, if not at home, then at one of the audio salons/dealers. Over 30 years of listening to various gear sure "tunes your ears up".

I live in a geographical tri-state area where starting from the 80s, we were blessed with fantastic audio salons packed with new and preowned brands from mild to wild and we often brought gear, cables and tweaks home to audition for the weekends or longer. We were very active with my other audiophile buddies with comparing and discussing the various gear and cables and ran many blind tests for fun to see how how much impact cables and tweaks had on various systems of ours...

If it wasn't a Krell component, then it would be a Mark Levinson, if not that, it would be Audio Research, or Spectral or Jeff Rowland... there was so much gear to audition, it was a never ending audiophile nervosa.. As long as one is active in this hobby, it seems the quest for the "elusive audio nirvana" should never end? Isn't that right?

Have you ever asked yourself one simple question... What exactly is "Nirvana", where do I find it, how will I know I have arrived at the Pinnacle of my audio system? When you run out of money or get burned out? I reached that "pinnacle" some years back, a point where enough was truly enough... I got burned out from it all and took a nice long break from the hobby for almost 5 years.


Many of audio stores are now gone. The hobby is not dead but it is not what it once was around here either. There are many reasons that I can give for that but it is beyond the scope of this post and is a different topic all together.


My audiophile buddies from decades ago are not into it anymore. Guess it wasn't really about the music for them after all? They did enjoy the gear and the quest for sonic bliss and perfection... It's just that no one knows where that bullseye really is and by the simple fact that no speaker, gear, cable or a recording is perfect, it therefore can NEVER be achieved. But it is fun chasing that "ideal collection of gear" and I get that.

I press on listening to more music than ever. My gear swapping days are over. It just doesn't excite me to change speakers every six months...


So I no longer ask myself questions of "How do I constantly improve my sound", I have reached a point where I said " I am perfectly happy with what I have".

But if the old adage "It's about the journey, not the destination" suits you better and that "audiophile spirit" still burns strong, by all means, keep kindling those flames of passion and press on!
 
TheOctopus said:
Have you ever asked yourself one simple question... What exactly is "Nirvana", where do I find it, how will I know I have arrived at the Pinnacle of my audio system? When you run out of money or get burned out? I reached that "pinnacle" some years back, a point where enough was truly enough... I got burned out from it all and took a nice long break from the hobby for almost 5 years.


Many of audio stores are now gone. The hobby is not dead but it is not what it once was around here either. There are many reasons that I can give for that but it is beyond the scope of this post and is a different topic all together.


My audiophile buddies from decades ago are not into it anymore. Guess it wasn't really about the music for them after all? They did enjoy the gear and the quest for sonic bliss and perfection... It's just that no one knows where that bullseye really is and by the simple fact that no speaker, gear, cable or a recording is perfect, it therefore can NEVER be achieved. But it is fun chasing that "ideal collection of gear" and I get that.

I press on listening to more music than ever. My gear swapping days are over. It just doesn't excite me to change speakers every six months...


So I no longer ask myself questions of "How do I constantly improve my sound", I have reached a point where I said " I am perfectly happy with what I have".

But if the old adage "It's about the journey, not the destination" suits you better and that "audiophile spirit" still burns strong, by all means, keep kindling those flames of passion and press on!
Click to expand...
We've been working on a class D project for the last 4 years. Not using someone else's modules either- working entirely from scratch. We were awarded a patent back in November 2019. This project has taken a while- there were a lot of hurdles to jump. It was very obvious that if we didn't get this done, class D technology was now developed to the point that if you weren't onboard you were going to be left behind. We've finally had prototypes working for the last several months that are doing what we aimed for. I've taken one home and played it in my own system (with which I am entirely satisfied, although it appears I'll need a new cartridge fairly soon).

Its nice to see that the class D is sounding very much like our regular OTL tube amps. Put another way, since the class D is nearly a perfect voltage source and has distortion over an order of magnitude lower, it should be fairly neutral and its great to hear that even our smallest OTL sounds extremely similar. I expect when the production is up and running I'll snag a pair for my system, not so much because they sound any different (and they don't) but simply because they draw a lot less power and make less heat. I'm not sure and don't care if this means our amps were on the right track all along or if we managed to make a solid state amp that sounds as good as our tube amps.

But there has been a consistent loss of bass at the listening chair although no-where else in the room. To deal with that I talked to Duke at Audiokinesis, since he makes the best-known Distributed Bass Array subwoofer system known as The Swarm. I installed two of his subs (since my main speakers are good to 20Hz no worries) and that solved the bass at the listening chair issue (the standing waves were broken up).

I think its good to be satisfied with what you have. From a viewpoint of life itself its a very healthy place to be!
 
TheOctopus said:
I am a music lover. I'll take that as a compliment. Many musicians are not audiophiles and do not have audio gear into the 5 or 6 figures yet they are the creators of the very music you and I enjoy. But we are in this hobby for more than just the music...

Being an "audiophile", gear was obviously always important and so was optimizing the system.

Over the 30 years of being in the hobby, I now have a very clear understanding of what constitutes good "system synergy" to my ears. Keep in mind that part is always very subjective and personal.

It was not learned by acquiring one pair of speakers and calling it done. I already mentioned I had a few dozen different speakers and even more gear of brands from just about A-Z... The quest for that perfect sound was very much the goal.

If I did not own it, I auditioned it, if not at home, then at one of the audio salons/dealers. Over 30 years of listening to various gear sure "tunes your ears up".

I live in a geographical tri-state area where starting from the 80s, we were blessed with fantastic audio salons packed with new and preowned brands from mild to wild and we often brought gear, cables and tweaks home to audition for the weekends or longer. We were very active with my other audiophile buddies with comparing and discussing the various gear and cables and ran many blind tests for fun to see how how much impact cables and tweaks had on various systems of ours...

If it wasn't a Krell component, then it would be a Mark Levinson, if not that, it would be Audio Research, or Spectral or Jeff Rowland... there was so much gear to audition, it was a never ending audiophile nervosa.. As long as one is active in this hobby, it seems the quest for the "elusive audio nirvana" should never end? Isn't that right?

Have you ever asked yourself one simple question... What exactly is "Nirvana", where do I find it, how will I know I have arrived at the Pinnacle of my audio system? When you run out of money or get burned out? I reached that "pinnacle" some years back, a point where enough was truly enough... I got burned out from it all and took a nice long break from the hobby for almost 5 years.


Many of audio stores are now gone. The hobby is not dead but it is not what it once was around here either. There are many reasons that I can give for that but it is beyond the scope of this post and is a different topic all together.


My audiophile buddies from decades ago are not into it anymore. Guess it wasn't really about the music for them after all? They did enjoy the gear and the quest for sonic bliss and perfection... It's just that no one knows where that bullseye really is and by the simple fact that no speaker, gear, cable or a recording is perfect, it therefore can NEVER be achieved. But it is fun chasing that "ideal collection of gear" and I get that.

I press on listening to more music than ever. My gear swapping days are over. It just doesn't excite me to change speakers every six months...


So I no longer ask myself questions of "How do I constantly improve my sound", I have reached a point where I said " I am perfectly happy with what I have".

But if the old adage "It's about the journey, not the destination" suits you better and that "audiophile spirit" still burns strong, by all means, keep kindling those flames of passion and press on!
Click to expand...

I think back to the Mar/Apr 2009 issue of The Absolute Sound where editior-in-chief Robert Harley said, "I believe something catastrophic occurs at the recording mic's diaphragm such that much of the music never reaches the recording." Paraphrased. He then went on to describe an experiment conducted by Ed Meitner of EMM Labs. Harley didn't say it but I'm guessing he was just parrotting Meitner's conclusion.

Then there's Jonathan Valin also of TAS who in circa 2008 said, "We are lucky if even our very best playback systems are able to capture just 15% of the magic of the live performance." Paraphrased. More than once after sharing this quote with friends their response was even 15% was optimistic.

These are two individuals who probably have had as much and perhaps more access to equipment than you.

Maybe you could reach out to them and share how you're able to achieve a state of sonic nirvana with your acquire and mission accomplished strategy? No doubt they're missing the boat here.
 
atmasphere said:
We've been working on a class D project for the last 4 years. Not using someone else's modules either- working entirely from scratch. We were awarded a patent back in November 2019. This project has taken a while- there were a lot of hurdles to jump. It was very obvious that if we didn't get this done, class D technology was now developed to the point that if you weren't onboard you were going to be left behind. We've finally had prototypes working for the last several months that are doing what we aimed for. I've taken one home and played it in my own system (with which I am entirely satisfied, although it appears I'll need a new cartridge fairly soon).

Its nice to see that the class D is sounding very much like our regular OTL tube amps. Put another way, since the class D is nearly a perfect voltage source and has distortion over an order of magnitude lower, it should be fairly neutral and its great to hear that even our smallest OTL sounds extremely similar. I expect when the production is up and running I'll snag a pair for my system, not so much because they sound any different (and they don't) but simply because they draw a lot less power and make less heat. I'm not sure and don't care if this means our amps were on the right track all along or if we managed to make a solid state amp that sounds as good as our tube amps.

But there has been a consistent loss of bass at the listening chair although no-where else in the room. To deal with that I talked to Duke at Audiokinesis, since he makes the best-known Distributed Bass Array subwoofer system known as The Swarm. I installed two of his subs (since my main speakers are good to 20Hz no worries) and that solved the bass at the listening chair issue (the standing waves were broken up).

I think its good to be satisfied with what you have. From a viewpoint of life itself its a very healthy place to be!
Click to expand...
How is this class D project going to impact Atmasphere?
 
Mike said:
I haven’t kept up with this thread entirely, but I’ve enjoyed Ralph’s posts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Click to expand...

Mike - Unless "Ralph" signs himself as Ralph most readers don't know who you are talking about! Could you enlighten the uninitiated please?

Thanks. Peter
 
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