The Audiohpile Ear

Al M. said:
Being a scientist myself (albeit in an unrelated field, biochemistry), I agree that we can’t measure everything we can hear,
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AJ Soundfield said:
I don't. :)
I'll explain. First, if it weren't obvious, I'm agnostic. Superstitous beliefs, not my bag. One of the first core engineering courses one must complete, is Logic. The above statement you made is a form of Wishful Thinking fallacy. Something is, because you wish it to be, not because of any evidence. It's very common!
Further, if I came into a Biochemist forum, claiming that Biochemists can't measure everything and are totally misguided using their scientific methods, based on my knowledge as a Lawyer (who sells Biochemical products), how would that fly?
Why do otherwise intelligent, educated folks in one field, think that makes them enough of an expert to argue electro-acoustic and perceptual science.? How much research and applicable knowledge outside their own fields..and in those fields, do they have?
It's pretty easy to tell in any discussion. Just imagine me trying to discuss Biochemistry, or Law.:happy:
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Ok, let me modify:
In principle we should be able to measure everything we hear. But currently we don't know how to do that, since we know too little about human perception. *)

The same way as we currently don't know how to measure everything in biochemistry -- well, because we simply know too little about biochemistry, all the huge progress in knowledge in the last few decades notwithstanding.

_____________

*) And frankly, we also know too little about how to measure equipment dynamically in a meaningful way, so that the measurements sufficiently correlate with the music signal. Static test tones are easy. So are controlled simple tone bursts. None of these correlate sufficiently with the ever changing, complex signal in music.
 
AJ Soundfield said:
Non-blind/controlled "listening" is an "experience". You "experience" the DUT way beyond "ears" and "listening".
We do it every day.

cheers,

AJ
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Precisely. Hence playing the Stradivarius while “knowing” and “seeing” you are playing a an $8M Stradivarius is a religious experience. Nothing sounds better and the sound is unmistakable. Put a blindfold on and more than half professional violin players chose the new violins. The experiment was repeated a few years later, once again blindfolded. Same result and majority preferred the “new” violins because they “projected” the sound better.

Sitting in a listening chair after being told you are about to witness a “cable miracle”, seeing the “fat snake” with shiny carbon fiber plugs, with the “you wouldn’t understand metal alloy terminations” with the “never mind science” gadget straddling it, will make a believer out of anyone. How can the Emperor have no clothes...? Hence the so often encountered “fail” at recognizing that fat snake vs a quality, shielded cord in a blind test.
 
Al M. said:
Ok, let me modify:
In principle we should be able to measure everything we hear. But currently we don't know how to do that, since we know too little about human perception. *)
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Fair enough. Stereophonic soundfields create by microphones capture, yes. Sound>ears, yes.
Human perception >ears, no. Agree with you there. So instead of wild goose chases in the soundfield, start measuring humans. Or make sure they are "hearing" what they think they hear before any measurement.

Al M. said:
*) And frankly, we also know too little about how to measure equipment dynamically in a meaningful way, so that the measurements sufficiently correlate with the music signal. Static test tones are easy. So are controlled tone bursts. None of these correlate sufficiently with the ever changing signal in music.
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In measuring what? Electronics? Transduced soundwaves?
Are your familiar with Bark Wavelets?
Or why not simply use music...in a listening (no peeking) test?

cheers,

AJ
 
One just has to look at the various shapes of the human ear to understand there is no way we all hear a given sound or music the same.

I can easily change the sound I am experiencing by using my hands to alter the shape of my ears.
 
For full disclosure, I’m not a total cable denier or a skeptic who has never tried a “fancy cable”. I don’t need to mention the price of 35 ft runs of Transparent I needed for my custom built listening room/HT project for Wilson Alexias.. ;) Let’s just say an entry level Honda Accord was cheaper...

Did they not sound great? Better believe they did. Except that I found same level of nirvana with Transparent “the wave” speaker cables ($250) after comparing them directly since I had them in my closet. I’ve done many A/B tests and laughed in the end. I still use the $250 speaker cables to this day because my ears confirmed I could not hear a difference, so why bother upgrading? Were the D’Agostino amps not capable of resolving the difference and/or masked the difference for me? I don’t believe so as they were the best pair of monoblocks I’ve ever owned and my ears also told me that.
 
jap said:
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Now invert those curves for ability to hear GHz sampling rates
 
Yep and I’m in my 50’s and can’t hear anything above 15Khz anymore which is perfectly normal. The ears are not a “perfect forever” instrument. On the bright side, the metal dome tweeters do not bother me “as much” anymore although I still prefer soft dome tweeters. Perhaps in another 10 years I won’t need tweeters at all... :)
 
No doubt we all hear, see and taste slightly different. The pinna of the ear amplifies and helps you localize the sound. The “shape” of the pinna also exaggerates the differences but we adopt to it from infancy.
 
But of course, hearing differently and tasting differently had no bearing on the linked tests. It doesn't prove you heard something, or tasted something claimed. I'm sure the folks in the violin test didn't have identical pinnas.
Audiometric testing accounts for this. Tooles book goes over that variance in detail.
 
The Audiophile Ear, is really just the microphone to the brain. And the brain is the center of intelligence in all of us; right, wrong or indifferent.

So the wizardry behind the audio microphone embodies the key attributes of knowing what to listen for and when it is best to listen but know the ear is unique to you and only you are what matters.






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
TheOctopus said:
Precisely. Hence playing the Stradivarius while “knowing” and “seeing” you are playing a an $8M Stradivarius is a religious experience. Nothing sounds better and the sound is unmistakable. Put a blindfold on and more than half professional violin players chose the new violins. The experiment was repeated a few years later, once again blindfolded. Same result and majority preferred the “new” violins because they “projected” the sound better.

Sitting in a listening chair after being told you are about to witness a “cable miracle”, seeing the “fat snake” with shiny carbon fiber plugs, with the “you wouldn’t understand metal alloy terminations” with the “never mind science” gadget straddling it, will make a believer out of anyone. How can the Emperor have no clothes...? Hence the so often encountered “fail” at recognizing that fat snake vs a quality, shielded cord in a blind test.
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I wonder why many chefs when blindfolded can't tell basic foods apart? Do they really not know the difference between chicken and beef?
 
It’s a known fact that senses work together. Try tasting anything when your nose is stuffy or as it turns out with your eyes closed with wine or other food.

By the way, “scent marketing” is an important tool.

The proper scent in a luxury car showroom, for example, can enhance perception of product quality and confidence, which on an unconscious level, fuses an emotional bond between the potential buyer and the brand. It is also vitally important that an auto showroom signature scent cater to the preferences and desires of the clientele serviced.

Casinos are challenged more than any other type of business operation because their revenue depends exclusively on others losing theirs. Everyone knows there are no clocks or windows in casinos insuring that gamblers lose track of both time and their money.

Scent marketers have to find ways for gamblers to continue to lose themselves in the thrill and risk and the desire to return, ignoring the odds, even after patrons have lost their shirts and other important elements of their wardrobes.


https://www.airscent.com/scent-marketing-for-automotive-showrooms/


https://www.airscent.com/how-casino-brands-use-scent-marketing-to-attract-retain-gamblers/
 
mep said:
Watch Gordon Ramsey administer the test on every season of Hell’s Kitchen.
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I'd rather not, but I'll take your word on it. Probably wouldn't pass scientific rigor, but pretty darn funny none the less.
I'm sure there were some embarrassed chefs!
In my tests of vinyl vs "digitized" same vinyl in real time with the audio club, there was a lot of laughing, no one got mad, everyone had fun.
The way it should be.
 
Frédéric Brochet, a PhD candidate at the University of Bordeaux II in Talence, France. His big finding lit a fire under the seats of wine snobs everywhere.

In a sneaky study, Brochet dyed a white wine red and gave it to 54 oenology (wine science) students. The supposedly expert panel overwhelmingly described the beverage like they would a red wine. They were completely fooled.

The research, later published in the journal Brain and Language, is now widely used to show why wine tasting is total BS. But more than that, the study says something fascinating about how we perceive the world around us: that visual cues can effectively override our senses of taste and smell (which are, of course, pretty much the same thing.)

https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2014/08/the_most_infamous_study_on_wine_tasting.html
 
Next phase of “cable marketing” should definitely involve more senses. Can’t you smell and taste the difference of that cable?? One lick and you’ll know why it costs so much. On a serious note, Oh the aroma of some cables... Have some manufacturers already figured it out? :scholar:
 
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