Switched to Class D or get left behind?

[AJ Soundfield]

You lied about the compare? I let out a big sigh when I read this. Bummed. Seriously.

Man I literally copy and pasted your post about you buddies system to make it obvious. Hopefully you're joking.

I compared a very good class D to my Dartzeel 108 model 1. Very old model. Not able to update to model 2. I could not tell them apart. It was.loaned to me so I returned it.

Unsurprising given both SS and most likely driving a benign load.

Later a friend brought a tube amp over that absolutely destroyed my Dartzeel. $14,500. I bought the tube amp on the spot.

There you go, preference is involatile. With low/no NFB it will do all sorts of effects, obviously to your pleasure.

And I am again of the belief that class D only goes so far. I believe Mike Lavigne when he says his 468 brought more to the table than his 108V2 and his 458. My Class D topped out at a 108V1. Very good, but not elite sound. Fantastic for the money if you like a SS sound.

Well, ML's entitled to his preference and opinions like anyone else and as the AVS thread shows, they can conflict with physical reality. But as the Caltech et al paper shows, who cares, just enjoy what pleases you most.

I now use a KT88PP on my woofers/midrange through a passive crossover and a SET45 direct coupled to a horn with a Sublime filtering before the amp.
Every time I insert my Musical Fidelity A3cr, I think, mmaaaa. Ok. Not anywhere near as good as my tubes. The tubes have far better bass response in that a stand up or cello sound as such.

If it pleases you that's all that matters. Wouldn't use on my cardioid force cancelling type bass, but preferences and standards for fidelity vary

 

[atmasphere]

Right, so no mystery at all. In fact, exactly what Carver did in his challenge 4 decades ago. Measurements absolutely do matter. Thanks for agreeing.

Yes- and happy to do so!

I'm in the middle ground where I think not only are measurements important, if they are all there you can predict how the equipment will 'sound'. Its a bad spot to be because both the 'measurement only' camp and the subjectivist 'ears only' camp tend to level hate at that idea.

But its the exact same thing Daniel von Recklinghausen was talking about:

If it measures good and sounds bad, — it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, — you've measured the wrong thing

I don't recall that from engineering school.

Neither do I. They don't teach it there... you've been around a while and you've experienced it directly.

I'm sure you have measurements and customer comments about your speakers- yet how many customers have wanted to do an audition despite that? Quite a few I'm sure, as you mentioned one audition already. You've lived it. All I'm doing is pointing out what that's all about.

Further evidence is the existence of brick and mortar stores as well as audio shows. If audiophiles didn't think that if the manufacturer's or dealer's or distributor's or reviewer's lips were moving that he was lying, we would not need those things. Obviously spec sheets are part of that legacy.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Obviously spec sheets are part of that legacy.

Yep, I see a shoebox passive speaker claiming 99db sensitivity and 30hz bass....SMDH

 

[atmasphere]

Yep, I see a shoebox passive speaker claiming 99db sensitivity and 30hz bass....SMDH

Its no wonder audiophiles don't trust spec sheets with 'measurements'...

 

[Kramer64]

Be nice Peebody.

It's not just your opinion, Randy. In well over 90% of the "professional" Youtube videos that I've seen from the audio shows, I notice two things missing from the room:

1) Young people.
2) Entry-level equipment.

It would probably be a good idea for us as fans to share and promote:

1) Credible Youtube reviewers who cover entry-level to modest equipment as well as the high end.
2) The importance of establishing a relationship with a dealer or two where you can hear the products for yourself.

I've seen a lot of less expensive equipment at shows, much of it really good. It also seems that most YouTubers (not necessarily credible, but many are) cover entry level gear. No surprise there-many more customers for cheaper gear, more potential clicks. I've also noticed that the magazines are making a considerable effort to write about less expensive equipment. I don't think the lack of high quality entry level gear is why you don't see as many young people in the hobby as we might like. I think the biggest issues are: (1) Fewer young people are ever exposed to what a truly high quality system can do. Where would they see (hear) such a system? Not every home has a stereo the way it once was and there are very few brick and mortar stores. Even fewer that welcome casual walk ins which is how many of us got hooked: (2) There will always be exceptions, but far fewer younger folks, compared to boomers, will be attracted to complex systems with many boxes and cables. They grew up with convenience and user friendly interfaces as priorities. More and better one box or two box solutions will have more appeal.

 

[W9TR]

A big thanks to Ralph who in several previous posts articulated why amplifiers sound the way they do, and how measurements play a key role in understanding how things sound, and why some people may prefer a little 2nd harmonic distortion with their fries.

I’ve stated here before that I can’t hear a difference between a Purifi Eigentakt amplifier and my McIntosh MC 602. Both are properly designed amplifiers that measure exceptionally well. They both have vanishingly small levels of non-linearity. How can this be? Blasphemy!

There are so many other things that impact the sound of my system, like the room and speakers, that these two amps just don’t make any difference. Of course there was the expected McIntosh bashing, you-don’t-know how-to-listed and your-system-is not-resolving-enough canards that get hauled out when personal experience does not match deeply held beliefs.

I think I can sum things up: Class D?

“It is new, therefore we must reject it.”

Cheers and happy listening.

 

[Shadowfax]

Hah, whaddya get?

Just a little no nonsense V3 to drive my Dynaudio 42s in my office PC setup with a little Firestone Foobar DAC.

 

[atmasphere]

I think I can sum things up: Class D?

“It is new, therefore we must reject it.”

Class D isn't even that new! It was proposed in the 1950s. The first home units were sold in the 1960s (Sinclair).

 

[Mr Peabody]

I don't think most people know how to actually listen and what to listen for. I was lucky enough to have been show how otherwise I wouldn't either.

Many simply listen for overall tone and don't understand that is a tiny fraction of critical listening.

So I think for those people - who really listen for tone only - it may sound similar in as much as some class D can be decent if you are listening only for the overall tone.

As an example I have a TEAC class D amp here. It is the best Class D I have heard at any price. It still doesn't come close to tubes. But if you only listen for overall tone it does sound similar to some tubes.

Think of those people as 1 dimensional listeners rather than 3 dimensional listeners.

Some of the reviewers claim C

I know what Frito Lay "chips" are

Anyone sensible might realize I "bring my speakers anywhere"...for others to listen.
Unlike yourself, I do know what "listen" means. I do understand why you wouldn't want them in your room vs your JBL/MLs in front of peers ;-). Friend has a pair of those, quite familiar with them.

And the fact your friend keeps the JBL over your DIY garage speakers says volumes

 

[AJ Soundfield]

And the fact your friend keeps the JBL over your DIY garage speakers says volumes

Actually he has tons of other speakers, but my pair makes the gathering dust JBL a distant 2nd.
Just like yours to anyone who's heard both ;-).
It's ok, enjoy your chips and 30s tech. If the shoe fits..

 

[RepublicOfTexas69]

A big thanks to Ralph who in several previous posts articulated why amplifiers sound the way they do, and how measurements play a key role in understanding how things sound, and why some people may prefer a little 2nd harmonic distortion with their fries.

I’ve stated here before that I can’t hear a difference between a Purifi Eigentakt amplifier and my McIntosh MC 602. Both are properly designed amplifiers that measure exceptionally well. They both have vanishingly small levels of non-linearity. How can this be? Blasphemy!

There are so many other things that impact the sound of my system, like the room and speakers, that these two amps just don’t make any difference. Of course there was the expected McIntosh bashing, you-don’t-know how-to-listed and your-system-is not-resolving-enough canards that get hauled out when personal experience does not match deeply held beliefs.

I think I can sum things up: Class D?

“It is new, therefore we must reject it.”

Cheers and happy listening.

It is not new : For everyone's education:

Here are the key milestones in the history of the Class D amplifier:

• 1950s (The Concept): British scientist Alec Reeves (who also pioneered Pulse Code Modulation) invented the first Class D circuit. The letter 'D' simply followed the alphabetical naming of previous amplifier classes (Class A, B, and C) and does not stand for "digital". [1, 2, 3]
• 1960s (Commercial Attempts): The British company Sinclair Radionics (led by Clive Sinclair) released the first commercial Class D amplifier, the X-10, in 1964. It produced a mere 2.5 watts and, along with its successor (the X-20 in 1966), was highly unreliable due to the limitations of early germanium transistors. [1, 2, 3]
• 1970s & 1980s (The MOSFET Breakthrough): The topology became practical with the invention of silicon-based MOSFETs . Sony released the TA-N88 in 1978 , the first Class D amplifier to employ power MOSFETs and a switched-mode power supply, paving the way for higher fidelity and efficiency . [1]
• 1990s (Integrated Circuits): In 1996, Tripath released the first Class D amplifier based on an integrated circuit (IC) . Their "Class T" technology sparked widespread interest and proved these amps could deliver high-quality sound for consumer and pro-audio . [1, 2, 3]
• 2010s to Present (High-End Maturation): Early Class D amplifiers had a reputation for sounding "sterile" or "cold" due to slower switching speeds and interference . This changed around 2011 with the introduction of the Hypex Ncore, which brought high-end performance to the market. Today, modern amps use ultrafast switching materials like Gallium Nitride (GaN) and advanced feedback loops , making them a standard for everything from smartphones and televisions to massive concert sound systems. [1, 2, 3]

 

[RepublicOfTexas69]

Some of the reviewers claim C


And the fact your friend keeps the JBL over your DIY garage speakers says volumes

Take reviewers with a grain of salt, like most here do with.....

Why are you such a nasty Richard?

 

[Mr Peabody]

Actually he has tons of other speakers, but my pair makes the gathering dust JBL a distant 2nd.
Just like yours to anyone who's heard both ;-).
It's ok, enjoy your chips and 30s tech. If the shoe fits..

Take reviewers with a grain of salt, like most here do with.....

Why are you such a nasty Richard?

Are you trying to turn a new leaf?

Take reviewers with a grain of salt, like most here do with.....

Why are you such a nasty Richard?

I'm not Richard. You can call me Al.

That's nice you are turning a new leaf. I'll try harder to follow your example.

 

[W9TR]

It is not new : For everyone's education:

Here are the key milestones in the history of the Class D amplifier:

• 1950s (The Concept): British scientist Alec Reeves (who also pioneered Pulse Code Modulation) invented the first Class D circuit. The letter 'D' simply followed the alphabetical naming of previous amplifier classes (Class A, B, and C) and does not stand for "digital". [1, 2, 3]
• 1960s (Commercial Attempts): The British company Sinclair Radionics (led by Clive Sinclair) released the first commercial Class D amplifier, the X-10, in 1964. It produced a mere 2.5 watts and, along with its successor (the X-20 in 1966), was highly unreliable due to the limitations of early germanium transistors. [1, 2, 3]
• 1970s & 1980s (The MOSFET Breakthrough): The topology became practical with the invention of silicon-based MOSFETs . Sony released the TA-N88 in 1978 , the first Class D amplifier to employ power MOSFETs and a switched-mode power supply, paving the way for higher fidelity and efficiency . [1]
• 1990s (Integrated Circuits): In 1996, Tripath released the first Class D amplifier based on an integrated circuit (IC) . Their "Class T" technology sparked widespread interest and proved these amps could deliver high-quality sound for consumer and pro-audio . [1, 2, 3]
• 2010s to Present (High-End Maturation): Early Class D amplifiers had a reputation for sounding "sterile" or "cold" due to slower switching speeds and interference . This changed around 2011 with the introduction of the Hypex Ncore, which brought high-end performance to the market. Today, modern amps use ultrafast switching materials like Gallium Nitride (GaN) and advanced feedback loops , making them a standard for everything from smartphones and televisions to massive concert sound systems. [1, 2, 3]

Sometimes sarcasm is incorrectly interpreted. Just like CharGPT gets many things wrong.

 

[Mechnutt]

The one huge problem in today's market is that there are few dealers available to much of the consumers. Therefore, listening and comparing, especially with the advice of a trusted advisor, is next to impossible. Back in my younger days there was multiple dealers in most every even smaller city. In Syracuse we had 4 dealers along the Erie Blvd strip. Even in Binghamton we had three dealers (even more when you consider the small sell out of their homes advisors which there used to be in most cities). Not so any more.

Even in a city of 700,000 people, I have to drive at least 3.5 hours to find a store to look, feel, and listen to gear. Yes, there are online stores, but how exactly does that help in true comparisons?

The industry as a whole has become very non-inclusive for young just starting out music fans. The opinion that audiophile gear is exclusively for the millionaire (billionaire) is definitely real and it is damaging our hobby and its future in dramatic ways.

Young music fans get info from YouTube videos, Reddit and audio forums. Just browse Reddit and there are a plethora of posts asking about gear or for audio help. There is also a lot of bad info given. So many people there think that there is no need to upgrade to an external phono preamp and that they should use a built in one thinking there is no difference.

 

[Kingrex]

There you go, preference is involatile. With low/no NFB it will do all sorts of effects, obviously to your pleasure.



If it pleases you that's all that matters. Wouldn't use on my cardioid force cancelling type bass, but preferences and standards for fidelity vavaryi

I have stopped believing the word "Preference". Its not just preference. I have sat in a room with 5 or more well respected ears. It was a DAC compare. It was plainly obvious and immediately heard by all the sonic difference and which sounded more like real instruments.

Young music fans get info from YouTube videos, Reddit and audio forums. Just browse Reddit and there are a plethora of posts asking about gear or for audio help. There is also a lot of bad info given. So many people there think that there is no need to upgrade to an external phono preamp and that they should use a built in one thinking there is no difference.

What's wrong with a integrated with built in phono. The Primare that AJ said bested the Dartzeel and Gryphon has a built in phone and DAC. Just pop in a card.

 

[Mechnutt]

I've seen a lot of less expensive equipment at shows, much of it really good. It also seems that most YouTubers (not necessarily credible, but many are) cover entry level gear. No surprise there-many more customers for cheaper gear, more potential clicks. I've also noticed that the magazines are making a considerable effort to write about less expensive equipment. I don't think the lack of high quality entry level gear is why you don't see as many young people in the hobby as we might like. I think the biggest issues are: (1) Fewer young people are ever exposed to what a truly high quality system can do. Where would they see (hear) such a system? Not every home has a stereo the way it once was and there are very few brick and mortar stores. Even fewer that welcome casual walk ins which is how many of us got hooked: (2) There will always be exceptions, but far fewer younger folks, compared to boomers, will be attracted to complex systems with many boxes and cables. They grew up with convenience and user friendly interfaces as priorities. More and better one box or two box solutions will have more appeal.

From what I see in Vinyl shops, the young people are becoming more involved. The shops here are loaded with teenagers and the 20 something crowd.

And a company like WiiM who sells streamers and an integrated class d amp with a streamer all with room correction software and a 10 band eq all at good budget prices is selling a lot of gear to the younger crowd. Just get on Reddit or the SHF and see. Their products work great and sound good for little money.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

I have stopped believing the word "Preference". Its not just preference. I have sat in a room with 5 or more well respected ears. It was a DAC compare. It was plainly obvious and immediately heard by all the sonic difference and which sounded more like real instruments.

You've stopped believing in preference when 5 people preferred something. Ok.
I was in a room with 500+ respected ears comparing class A to AB, that heard plainly obvious and immediately sonic differences which sounded more like real instruments. See my earlier post. Or the Caltech study. All kinds of things can cause preference.

The Primare that AJ said bested the Dartzeel and Gryphon

That was still a joke, fyi.

 

[Hear Here]

Class D isn't even that new! It was proposed in the 1950s. The first home units were sold in the 1960s (Sinclair).

Class D amplifier development can be compared with digital photography in some respects.

Both started decades ago, both enjoyed a poor reputation in the early years, but the idea appealed to buyers, so the technology was not abandoned (as many other new technologies have), allowing development to continue.

Now that the benefits of digital photograph have been accepted by 95% of photographers - in particular picture quality, price and flexibility - the same has happened with Class D. More and more music lovers (as opposed to audiophiles who tend to favour big expensive and impressive boxes on their shelves) are appreciating the benefits of Class D, both for its excellent sound quality (that has as much variation as any other Class) and its exceptional value for money. This allows us to spend more on what really makes a big difference to our listening pleasure - our speakers.

The title of this thread shouldn’t be ignored, even by the dinosaurs in this hobby!

 

[RepublicOfTexas69]

Are you trying to turn a new leaf?



I'm not Richard. You can call me Al.

That's nice you are turning a new leaf. I'll try harder to follow your example.

Class D amplifier development can be compared with digital photography in some respects.

Both started decades ago, both enjoyed a poor reputation in the early years, but the idea appealed to buyers, so the technology was not abandoned (as many other new technologies have), allowing development to continue.

Now that the benefits of digital photograph have been accepted by 95% of photographers - in particular picture quality, price and flexibility - the same has happened with Class D. More and more music listeners (as opposed to audiophiles who tend to favour big expensive and impressive boxes on their shelves) are appreciating the benefits of Class D, both for its excellent sound quality (that has as much variation as any other Class) and its exceptional value for money. This allows us to spend more on what really makes a big difference to our listening pleasure - our speakers.

The title of this thread shouldn’t be ignored, even by the dinosaurs in this hobby!

Okay Richard, hardly I am very happy and content just hate keyboard bullies.