Switched to Class D or get left behind?

[AJ Soundfield]

You lied about the compare? I let out a big sigh when I read this. Bummed. Seriously.

Man I literally copy and pasted your post about you buddies system to make it obvious. Hopefully you're joking.

I compared a very good class D to my Dartzeel 108 model 1. Very old model. Not able to update to model 2. I could not tell them apart. It was.loaned to me so I returned it.

Unsurprising given both SS and most likely driving a benign load.

Later a friend brought a tube amp over that absolutely destroyed my Dartzeel. $14,500. I bought the tube amp on the spot.

There you go, preference is involatile. With low/no NFB it will do all sorts of effects, obviously to your pleasure.

And I am again of the belief that class D only goes so far. I believe Mike Lavigne when he says his 468 brought more to the table than his 108V2 and his 458. My Class D topped out at a 108V1. Very good, but not elite sound. Fantastic for the money if you like a SS sound.

Well, ML's entitled to his preference and opinions like anyone else and as the AVS thread shows, they can conflict with physical reality. But as the Caltech et al paper shows, who cares, just enjoy what pleases you most.

I now use a KT88PP on my woofers/midrange through a passive crossover and a SET45 direct coupled to a horn with a Sublime filtering before the amp.
Every time I insert my Musical Fidelity A3cr, I think, mmaaaa. Ok. Not anywhere near as good as my tubes. The tubes have far better bass response in that a stand up or cello sound as such.

If it pleases you that's all that matters. Wouldn't use on my cardioid force cancelling type bass, but preferences and standards for fidelity vary

 

[atmasphere]

Right, so no mystery at all. In fact, exactly what Carver did in his challenge 4 decades ago. Measurements absolutely do matter. Thanks for agreeing.

Yes- and happy to do so!

I'm in the middle ground where I think not only are measurements important, if they are all there you can predict how the equipment will 'sound'. Its a bad spot to be because both the 'measurement only' camp and the subjectivist 'ears only' camp tend to level hate at that idea.

But its the exact same thing Daniel von Recklinghausen was talking about:

If it measures good and sounds bad, — it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, — you've measured the wrong thing

I don't recall that from engineering school.

Neither do I. They don't teach it there... you've been around a while and you've experienced it directly.

I'm sure you have measurements and customer comments about your speakers- yet how many customers have wanted to do an audition despite that? Quite a few I'm sure, as you mentioned one audition already. You've lived it. All I'm doing is pointing out what that's all about.

Further evidence is the existence of brick and mortar stores as well as audio shows. If audiophiles didn't think that if the manufacturer's or dealer's or distributor's or reviewer's lips were moving that he was lying, we would not need those things. Obviously spec sheets are part of that legacy.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Obviously spec sheets are part of that legacy.

Yep, I see a shoebox passive speaker claiming 99db sensitivity and 30hz bass....SMDH

 

[atmasphere]

Yep, I see a shoebox passive speaker claiming 99db sensitivity and 30hz bass....SMDH

Its no wonder audiophiles don't trust spec sheets with 'measurements'...

 

[Kramer64]

Be nice Peebody.

It's not just your opinion, Randy. In well over 90% of the "professional" Youtube videos that I've seen from the audio shows, I notice two things missing from the room:

1) Young people.
2) Entry-level equipment.

It would probably be a good idea for us as fans to share and promote:

1) Credible Youtube reviewers who cover entry-level to modest equipment as well as the high end.
2) The importance of establishing a relationship with a dealer or two where you can hear the products for yourself.

I've seen a lot of less expensive equipment at shows, much of it really good. It also seems that most YouTubers (not necessarily credible, but many are) cover entry level gear. No surprise there-many more customers for cheaper gear, more potential clicks. I've also noticed that the magazines are making a considerable effort to write about less expensive equipment. I don't think the lack of high quality entry level gear is why you don't see as many young people in the hobby as we might like. I think the biggest issues are: (1) Fewer young people are ever exposed to what a truly high quality system can do. Where would they see (hear) such a system? Not every home has a stereo the way it once was and there are very few brick and mortar stores. Even fewer that welcome casual walk ins which is how many of us got hooked: (2) There will always be exceptions, but far fewer younger folks, compared to boomers, will be attracted to complex systems with many boxes and cables. They grew up with convenience and user friendly interfaces as priorities. More and better one box or two box solutions will have more appeal.

 

[W9TR]

A big thanks to Ralph who in several previous posts articulated why amplifiers sound the way they do, and how measurements play a key role in understanding how things sound, and why some people may prefer a little 2nd harmonic distortion with their fries.

I’ve stated here before that I can’t hear a difference between a Purifi Eigentakt amplifier and my McIntosh MC 602. Both are properly designed amplifiers that measure exceptionally well. They both have vanishingly small levels of non-linearity. How can this be? Blasphemy!

There are so many other things that impact the sound of my system, like the room and speakers, that these two amps just don’t make any difference. Of course there was the expected McIntosh bashing, you-don’t-know how-to-listed and your-system-is not-resolving-enough canards that get hauled out when personal experience does not match deeply held beliefs.

I think I can sum things up: Class D?

“It is new, therefore we must reject it.”

Cheers and happy listening.

 

[Shadowfax]

Hah, whaddya get?

Just a little no nonsense V3 to drive my Dynaudio 42s in my office PC setup with a little Firestone Foobar DAC.

 

[atmasphere]

I think I can sum things up: Class D?

“It is new, therefore we must reject it.”

Class D isn't even that new! It was proposed in the 1950s. The first home units were sold in the 1960s (Sinclair).

 

[Mr Peabody]

I don't think most people know how to actually listen and what to listen for. I was lucky enough to have been show how otherwise I wouldn't either.

Many simply listen for overall tone and don't understand that is a tiny fraction of critical listening.

So I think for those people - who really listen for tone only - it may sound similar in as much as some class D can be decent if you are listening only for the overall tone.

As an example I have a TEAC class D amp here. It is the best Class D I have heard at any price. It still doesn't come close to tubes. But if you only listen for overall tone it does sound similar to some tubes.

Think of those people as 1 dimensional listeners rather than 3 dimensional listeners.

Some of the reviewers claim C

I know what Frito Lay "chips" are

Anyone sensible might realize I "bring my speakers anywhere"...for others to listen.
Unlike yourself, I do know what "listen" means. I do understand why you wouldn't want them in your room vs your JBL/MLs in front of peers ;-). Friend has a pair of those, quite familiar with them.

And the fact your friend keeps the JBL over your DIY garage speakers says volumes