Switched to Class D or get left behind?

[Feanor]

His savage attack on Danny from GSR recently, Amir's legendary battles on other forums before he started his own, and the atmosphere he has created on the ASR forum (and how he often deletes and bans those who disagree with him) shows the truth to be something different.

Criticism of Danny was deserved from what I can see I've never own a speaker built, designed, or modified by Danny so I can't judge actual result. However I've never heard Danny make a compelling argument on the subject of speakers.

 

[RepublicOfTexas69]

Criticism of Danny was deserved from what I can see.

In your opinion.

 

[Feanor]

Agreed.

I do think it is ultimately two things that drives them:

1) laziness: they don't want to have to do the work to figure out what is "good" and they are people who fundamentally like to be told what to think;

2) Jealousy: I do think a large part of it is they are jealous (as is a very large part of the people in this hobby) and claiming their $200 Eversolo measure as good or better than Aries Cerat makes them feel superior to those with more expensive gear.

The funny thing is my timex keeps more accurate time than a Rolex. Having said that I still wish I could afford a Rolex and I'm not jealous of those who have one....or 10.

I'd say a big Yes And No to these observation.

In the first place there is a very large ranges of types of people and interests at ASR -- fairly, a far wider range than this site.

As for "laziness", given the range of members at ASR, I have observed many older audiophiles who have decades of experience. That is, both listening experience and the desired to correlate what they hear with measurements that with the sound what they prefer. I'd say these folks aren't as lazy as those who dismiss measurements without consideration of their meaning or relevance. (Dr. Toole has spent decades scientifically correlating speaker characteristics with listener preferences; he is a member of ASR, not a member here.)

As for jealousy, sure, some of that goes on; in what realm is jealousy totally absent.? I'd enjoy having, say, a system with all McIntosh electronics, (for that matter Macs of recent years measure very well, at least the s/s stuff), and I kind of envy folks who can afford that. But I also realized the more moderately price equipment can perform as well.

For my part, I've always been constrained to look for VALUE in anything I purchase, very much including hi-fi equipment. After decades I've come to see this as an advantage in my selection and decision making -- I've gotten more for less.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

Criticism of Danny was deserved from what I can see I've never own a speaker built, designed, or modified by Danny so I can't judge actual result. However I've never heard Danny make a compelling argument on the subject of speakers.

Interesting.

So you disagree with what he did on the Klispch?

On the Wilson's?

I should caution you I've owned those very speakers and went by his place to see and hear the changes.

What is it you are basing your statement of no "compelling" argument?

Maybe if Amir claimed it then it would be true?

 

[2FarGone]

For my part, I've always been constrained to look for VALUE in anything I purchase, very much including hi-fi equipment. After decades I've come to see this as an advantage in my selection and decision making -- I've gotten more for less.

FWIW, I have done pretty much the same for my entire audio “career”, since I was very limited in the resources I could devote to this hobby for most of my life. Only over the last ten years or so have I been able to permit myself a little extravagance, but old mindsets don’t change overnight. I still demand value in anything I purchase, new or used, and for that reason I tend to avoid names with high name recognition such as McIntosh. It isn’t that there’s anything at all wrong with their equipment - I just think that I can attain equal or better performance for less.

 

[Kramer64]

Agreed.

I do think it is ultimately two things that drives them:

1) laziness: they don't want to have to do the work to figure out what is "good" and they are people who fundamentally like to be told what to think;

2) Jealousy: I do think a large part of it is they are jealous (as is a very large part of the people in this hobby) and claiming their $200 Eversolo measure as good or better than Aries Cerat makes them feel superior to those with more expensive gear.

The funny thing is my timex keeps more accurate time than a Rolex. Having said that I still wish I could afford a Rolex and I'm not jealous of those who have one....or 10.

A lot of the objectivists undoubtedly genuinely believe they are following science and are right. In some cases, they may be. I'm sure jealousy affects some. There also seems to be an unusual amount of ego in this hobby. It seems its not enough for some to have a system they enjoy-they can't allow that others, usually through greater investment, have systems that, even to their ears, would sound better. So, the idea that your $500 dac sounds just as good as a $50,000 dac is quite beguiling. I think some huge YouTube channels have been built on telling people what they want to hear-its an easy sell.

 

[2FarGone]

“I think some huge YouTube channels have been built on telling people what they want to hear-its an easy sell.”

“Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.”

Simon & Garfunkle, The Boxer

 

[Michaels HiFi]

“I think some huge YouTube channels have been built on telling people what they want to hear-its an easy sell.”

“Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.”

Simon & Garfunkle, The Boxer

Agreed.

I also see the formerly high end reviewers doing what I call a "race to the bottom".

They see the subscribers they get by now reviewing cheap gear and proclaiming it as good as more expensive high end gear. And certainly sometimes that can be the case.

They have sold out in the name of - like you said - telling people what they want to hear.

 

[Feanor]

I get it, still I generally prefer to stay away from folks that only surround themselves with like minded people. I avoid the ASR crowd and do not tolerate shills or trolls. Got me booted from a couple of forums but heck it is what it is and I learned to bite my keyboard now....

This is a tad ironic because in my observation folks at AudioShark are much more of a similar mind than the more diverse opinions at ASR.

 

[Mr Peabody]

I have been in a discussion on the SHF about amps sounding different and the nonsense some people there are spouting about its all in my head is just crazy. They ignore the fact that my Pass X250 amp had thunderous bass and the Parasound A21s bass does not come close. I pointed out that the pass has 200,000uf of capacitance vs 88,000uf. That measurement alone supports my point. Every amp that I have owned sounded different. I brought up if they all sound the same, why not just buy a cheap $200 Chinese chip amp.

I owned a Marantz KI Ruby Integrated and claimed it is a very slow amp with deep slow bass and a lot of bloom but with a tonally rich and deep midrange. One guy stated that measurements don't support that. What FKG BS! Ken Ishiwata voiced the Ruby to sound this way.

What ASR fails to point out and their readers are mostly ignorant to, Class D can compress, highs become harsh and bass weaken all the while still measure low distortion. This is why folks you need your ears. And, why specs isn't the only thing to rely on.

A good amp regardless of Class needs a good power supply, high reserves of capacitance and good current delivery. The amp has to be able to deal with the reaction of the speaker load. It's just fact, no debate.

I've often talked about how a receiver can spec lower distortion than lets say McIntosh. I think most listeners would prefer the Mac. Well now we know receiver manufacturers learned if they apply tons of negative feedback they could get super low THD measurements. We also learned that too much negative feedback or not applied correctly can be degrading to sound quality.

If you are going to be the one listening to a system and you don't use your ears that's about as foolish as I can imagine.

 

[RepublicOfTexas69]

What ASR fails to point out and their readers are mostly ignorant to, Class D can compress, highs become harsh and bass weaken all the while still measure low distortion. This is why folks you need your ears. And, why specs isn't the only thing to rely on.

A good amp regardless of Class needs a good power supply, high reserves of capacitance and good current delivery. The amp has to be able to deal with the reaction of the speaker load. It's just fact, no debate.

I've often talked about how a receiver can spec lower distortion than lets say McIntosh. I think most listeners would prefer the Mac. Well now we know receiver manufacturers learned if they apply tons of negative feedback they could get super low THD measurements. We also learned that too much negative feedback or not applied correctly can be degrading to sound quality.

If you are going to be the one listening to a system and you don't use your ears that's about as foolish as I can imagine.

Like the Canor AI 2.10

 

[Mechnutt]

My take on it is a bit different, but we are free to disagree. First, I have no idea whether Amir or Danny are right in their arguments. Personally, I wouldn't buy speakers that I felt needed what Danny does and if I was that dissatisfied I would get new speakers. That's just me and if Danny's customers are happy with his work, as many seem to be, that's great.

Obviously, Danny and Amir have had a pointed exchange, but I didn't see any savage attack. Amir, from what I saw, didn't label Danny as stupid or a nitwit or a criminal. He did attack the benefits of the work Danny is selling for those speakers in a substantive way. Danny responded. They both made substantive points and everyone can decide who makes sense to them. To me, attacking someone personally is different and usually just demonstrates that the attacker doesn't have much of value to say on the topic at hand or is stinging from losing the debate on the merits.

Again, I have a fundamentally different view of audio than Amir, but from what I've seen, he generally presents his (flawed to my mind) views without getting in the gutter. Which I appreciate. I don't have to despise Amir to disagree with him. I'm not big on banning people from forums or deleting comments, but if you own the forum you have every right to run it as you please and the remedy for those who disagree is to avoid that forum.

I don't watch every Amir video or spend much time on ASR where there certainly are lots of toxic comments, so I might have missed something.

Danny has a lot of happy customers especially on the Audio Circles forum. He also makes speaker kits and sells fully made speakers. My issue with Danny is that on one of his videos he claimed that one of his new speakers would sound better than any speaker at any price point. What a bunch of BS. He lost me there. That is a statement that a charlatan makes.

And as far as ASR goes, I was booted off for disagreeing with him. Good riddance.

 

[Feanor]

And as far as ASR goes, I was booted off for disagreeing with him. Good riddance.

That's interesting to me. Speaking from personal experience, I've had a number of run-ins with hardcore Objectivists at ASR, but it hasn't got me booted off yet. I've be cautioned by moderators a few times though at least one caution was for touching on political issues.

I guess some here will have me pegged as an Objectivist, however though I advocated for the usefulness of measurements, I'm not a hardcore guy. In particular, I have repeatedly defended the right of folks there to post their subjective impressions.

I've you're interested, my moniker there is presently "Gorgonzola", though I used "Feanor" an number or years ago.

 

[GSOphile]

Left behind and still happy (Luxman M-10X).

 

[Michaels HiFi]

And as far as ASR goes, I was booted off for disagreeing with him. Good riddance.

I believe using your own ears and not following group think is expressly against their rules.

 

[RepublicOfTexas69]

Left behind and still happy (Luxman M-10X).

Good for you. I listen to all topologies have 4 systems in my home. Enjoy them all. The context of the article was quite ridiculous and the writers are just looking for clicks. Have Class A, A/B, A/D (Hybrid powered by a filtered and tuned linear power supply, and the input transformer (toroid) is oversized which leads to the low noise) And lastly Class G. By far my favorite right now is the Canor.

 

[Feanor]

I believe using your own ears and not following group think is expressly against their rules.

If all you do is insist one's "ears" are all that matter, you will certainly be "called" on it. If you then respond contemptuously or with personal attacks you are likely to be expelled -- which isn't much different from other forums.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

If all you do is insist one's "ears" are all that matter, you will certainly be "called" on it.

Talk about having lost the plot. An audio forum that feels righteous in "calling out" people who have the NERVE to use their ears to decide......if they like the way something sounds.

Thank goodness ASR is standing up and taking on this threat to common sense!

BTW, I'm going to start a group that "calls out" people who dare to decide if food tastes good by using their own taste buds. That will NOT be allowed! We will find a way to 'measure' the food instead and then argue over it and ban people who dare to say we should use out taste buds.

With the utmost respect Feanor - the more you post in defense of trying to justify ASR, the more it only reaffirms the negative stigma it has rightly earned over the years. Not people who also use measurements - but ASR as a whole.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

Left behind and still happy (Luxman M-10X).

That's a beautiful amp.

 

[Feanor]

With the utmost respect Feanor - the more you post in defense of trying to justify ASR, the more it only reaffirms the negative stigma it has rightly earned over the years. Not people who also use measurements - but ASR as a whole.

Indeed, around here my ASR apologetics are "hollering down a well". I've been "called" on that and will be silent for now, however I reserve the right to defend ASR in future.