Starting from scratch - 2 channel that needs to play movies too

2

2FlyingYorkies

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Jun 4, 2017
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182
Location
Kansas
After a long absence from the world of audio, my wife and I have decided that our ears can no longer stand our 20-year-old college era equipment, and we need to start over. I'm hoping the forum can give us some advice on the state of things today, and how to wisely invest in new gear.

We do not have a dedicated media room. The space is a large open square-ish area of about 30x31 overall that combines living/audio (16x18), kitchen (16x13, behind the sofa), dining (14x12, to the right of the front media wall), and entry/stairs leading down (the remaining quadrant, 20x12 irregular shape). Wood floors, large windows, and modern decor. Since it's all open, and because it's the main gathering/living space in the house, we have some aesthetic limitations on speakers and other accessories. It has to be a stylish modern living area first, hifi haven second. Electronics will need to be out of sight, and speakers will have to pass a visual test just as much as a sonic one. Our taste in music covers a wide range from chamber and large scale symphonic to top-40 pop and everything in between. We want a system that is truly full range, meaning bass response flat to at least 30hz, but are trying hard to do that without needing a sub (primarily for space and aesthetic reasons). Preference is for a fairly neutral sound that is quick and tight, but perhaps erring towards being slightly forgiving in the upper register. Not looking to have our ears bleed from bright trumpets...

One of my biggest concerns is which path to take on electronics. This will be a music system that's also connected to the TV for movies, but there will be no surround sound - 2.0 or 2.1 at the most. I was planning to use something like the Oppo 205 as a source for music and movies, but what should I connect it to for best sound quality? Just a straight 2-channel preamp via balanced outputs, and let the player handle DAC duties and downmix multichannel movie audio? A surround processor via HDMI that will do the downmixing and DAC functions, and provide add room correction and LFE management (remember the aesthetic limitations - acoustic treatments will be a very tough sell, so electronic correction may be our best path)? It's probably obvious from the tone of the questions, but this will be a solid state system - no tubes. Our music is all currently on redbook CD, but we'd like to try streaming from Tidal or similar too.

We've done a fair amount of research on equipment, as well as some auditioning, but there are a lot of unanswered questions.

Candidates for speakers include: Focal Sopra 3, B&W 802d3, Revel Ultima Salon 2, GoldenEar Reference (the budget option when it hits the market in month or two). Open to other suggestions, but these are the ones we've been able to audition and have liked. The B&W represents the upper limit of the budget for speakers. A number of other speakers have been scratched from the list for various reasons (aesthetic and/or acoustic): Acoustic Zen Crescendo, Canton Reference 3k, Magico S5, Legacy Focus, Paradigm Persona 7F.

Electronics budget is ~$10k and under, and is much more likely to be subject to future upgrades than the speakers. Particularly interested in suggestions here. The equipment will all need to live inside a piece of furniture (like a Salamander credenza cabinet), so giant pure class-A amps that double as space heaters probably aren't a good idea. I'm open to the idea of Class D where appropriate.

Oh, and in case anyone is wondering what our current (20+ year-old and throw-away) starting point is: VMPS Mini Tower IIA speakers, Yamaha receiver or B&K Pro10 MC preamp / EX4420 amp, generic Samsung Blu-Ray player, Tara Labs Prism and Spectrum cables. The best we could hope to afford on a mid-90's college budget, but obviously not up to par any longer.

I have plenty more questions, but this is already too long for a single post... Thanks for any input or suggestions you might have!
 
bel canto make some superb equipment and its small and domestically friendly . some of it has home theatre bypass so maybe in the future if you are allowed surround sound you can integrate your pre amp . if you can stretch to a modwright 36.5 that also has home theatre bypass and makes great music

some fabulous martin logans would look good and have integrated subs . beautiful speakers , I had to sell my summits recently but they are beautiful

many of them are very adjustable to the room . my son loved bass and used to turn my ml up and my word you could feel your chest shake without it being too `loud`

https://www.martinlogan.com/product-list.php

the sense of realism with ml is absolutely brilliant and well worth an audition
 
Agree with the above. I'm a big fan of preamps with HT Bypass (I use a Modwright LS 36.5DM in the main system). I have 3 preamps with the feature, two of which are currently being used in integrated AV systems. One of those with HT Bypass that I'm not using in an integrated AV system is an Odyssey Audio Candela premap. Very nice for the money and can be configured with HT Bypass (and I believe Van Alstine also has provisions for the feature.

http://www.odysseyaudio.com/products-candela.html
http://avahifi.com/products/pre-amplifiers/preamp-compare/comparisonrows
 
+1 for the Bel Canto. Rowland gear also runs pretty cool to from what I remember. My friend had the ML Summit X's powerd with H20 class D amps and they sounded excellent.
 
A couple to consider.... NuPrime makes some excellent and stylish equipment that is good value. The company is excellent and stands behind their products.

One of my favorite is from a company here is California. Wyred 4 Sound is from a young audio engineer who has done OEM work for years for other companies such as PS Audio, Peachtree, Genesis, etc. EJ Sarmento is considered the "boy wonder" in the audio world (not my words, but from a couple of different audio magazines) and his company is now celebrating their 10th anniversary. They make equipment which many times gets rated as giant killers. It is back with tremendous customer support and five year warranties. Many of their pieces win The Absolute Sound Editor's Choice awards each year. Worth researching.
 
2FY,

Interesting challenge and, of course, a fun one.

Of the speakers on your list, I'm a big fan of the Salon 2s. With the right amp (they need power!) they are hard to beat. But do know, the Salons need a lot of power.

An interesting system to address the solution you are seeking (audio & video in a 2.0/2.1 solution) may be the Salon 2s driven by the Pass Int-250 and Oppo 205. Add a LUMIN streamer for higher quality audio - an upgrade when ready.

Of the Sopras, my favorite is the 1 (w potentially 2 Rel or JL Audio subs).

Have not heard the new Golden Ear but this company does deliver a ton of value for the money.

Two other speakers to consider: Vandersteen Treos or Nola KOs.

You will get lots of opinions and recommendations here. Ultimately, let your ears and pocket make the decision.

Happy shopping!
 
On the HT bypass, just remember that there are few pre-amps which doesn't need to be turned on for the bypass to work (like Cary slp-05 which I have experience with), while most of them need it to be on, if you care about it.
 
Wow - I go to a few meetings this afternoon, and look what turns up! Thanks for all of the comments - this definitely gives me some things to look at.

i'm particularly interested in the Class D amp suggestions. I think they would work well in my application, but the seem to get a lot of bashing from certain directions. Has anyone heard the ATI AT542NC amps in person? Sound & Vision and Stereophile both seemed to really like them; Stereophile even reviewed it with two of the speakers I'm considering. Also contemplating the new PS Audio Stellar M700 amps, and perhaps the Stellar Gain Cell DAC/preamp. Brings up a good point that most 2-channel preamps don't do digital, so you either need an outboard DAC or do the processing in the player.

I actually went to college in Lawrence, KS, so Martin Logan is a hometown player that i'll have to look at again. My wife isn't a fan of electrostats from a dust collection standpoint, but maybe that can be overcome.

My local dealer has been pushing Devialet, which seems like a nice unit (though expensive). But as an all-in-one, it limits the ability to upgrade. Maybe the idea is you'll love it so much you don't have to? He also is pretty big on Classe Sigma, but haven't had a chance to hear them yet.

We auditioned the Focal Sopra 3 with a Naim SuperNait integrated, which is all of 80W. I was surprised at the overall performance, given that the Focals have a reputation for wanting power despite their sensitivity rating. Not a fan of all of Naim's proprietary connectors, though, so probably won't go that direction.
 
First, with all that open room, Martin Logan came to my mind as well. The only down side the "sweet spot" can be fairly narrow. I haven't heard any but the Ohm Walsh came to mind. Golden Ear also has powered bass, this type of thing may be good for large areas and not wanting a sub.

Going a bit different on electronics, take a look at the Marantz A/V preamps. They have all the HT features, the streaming, room equalization and a lot more. The Marantz power amps are good values but I'd probably move up to something else considering the speakers you are looking at.

You could get the Marantz preamp, something like Red Dragon, Class D, monoblocks and still have a decent budget left for speakers, depending on whether you get the nearly $4k preamp or the under $2k preamp, the latter should be fine for a 2-channel set up. Bryston is also a good power amp at an affordable price, comparatively for similar performance.

I'm not really a Rotel fan but I will mention they have a new A/V integrated amp. I haven't heard how much drive they have but should be good with something like Golden Ear where they'd have their own amps for bass.

One other thought might be going straight from the Oppo, or preamp, to powered speakers. I'm not that familiar with powered speakers to help you with particulars.
 
If only doing 2.1 or in the case of the GE Triton Reference then there is no need for an A/V based preamp. Just a preamp with a second set of outputs if a separate sub comes into play. For your situation if you like the sound the Triton Reference would be a good alternative and keeps money in your pocket plus the included subs become a bonus. In addition they are the most sensitive of the speakers you mentioned and the easiest to drive. In terms of Class D, I have tried several of the different variants over the last couple of years. If you want separates, though half width ones, a good combo is the Nuprime DAC-10/ST-10. If you want basically the same package they offer the IDA-16 integrated. All of their products can be bought with 30 day money back warranty. The DAC-10/ST-10 combo is basically the same width as the integrated just a little taller. The preamp section of either is first rate. Multiple reviews of both options available and are pretty much spot on. Another option on the Class D amp front is the Nord, from England, that many of us have owned. Unlike the Nuprime which is proprietary the Nord is Hypex NCore technology. Really good amp at a fair price. Also owned the W4S amps and they were the least favorite. Or you can go completely separate as if you start with the GE's you have much more working room.
 
For Class D amps, my vote goes towards the Nords - stereo or monoblocks. I heard the Red Dragon as well and they are nice too but my preference is with the Hypex implementation for them being ultra transparent and lower noise floor. In LA audio show, I heard the Wyred4Sound monoblocks on a KEF and prefer them the least. Haven't heard Bel Canto but have heard Questyle ICE amps several times - quiet good for the price (I think around $1800), smooth and leans a tad on the warmer side, if that is your preference. They also have a wireless model with a 5GHz transmitter - so you can avoid expensive interconnects.
 
Dev

I agree with you on the W4S amps, owned them and sold them. I go back and forth every couple of months between the Nuprime and the Nord on the Spatial's. Both have their own positive attributes. If a separate preamp and DAC is preferred the W4S STP-SE works great with either. A good combo with any of the Class D amps of the OP's choosing would be the STP-SE and the OPPO Sonica DAC/Streamer.
 
FWIW, the Devialet is a wonderful choice. New or used. But of course I would say that. I don't feel boxed in with the purchase either.
 
Jack said:
Dev

I agree with you on the W4S amps, owned them and sold them. I go back and forth every couple of months between the Nuprime and the Nord on the Spatial's. Both have their own positive attributes. If a separate preamp and DAC is preferred the W4S STP-SE works great with either. A good combo with any of the Class D amps of the OP's choosing would be the STP-SE and the OPPO Sonica DAC/Streamer.
Click to expand...

Agree. Where does the Job stand compared to Nuprime and Nord ?
 
Dev

If you have the right speaker the Job is a great amp. In my opinion it has issues with difficult loads or wild impedance swings. For something like the Triton Reference it could be great. The STP-SE, Job 225 and the Triton 5 were a great pairing when I tried them together.
 
2FlyingYorkies said:
This will be a music system that's also connected to the TV for movies, but there will be no surround sound - 2.0 or 2.1 at the most. I was planning to use something like the Oppo 205 as a source for music and movies, but what should I connect it to for best sound quality? Just a straight 2-channel preamp via balanced outputs, and let the player handle DAC duties and downmix multichannel movie audio? A surround processor via HDMI that will do the downmixing and DAC functions, and provide add room correction and LFE management (remember the aesthetic limitations - acoustic treatments will be a very tough sell, so electronic correction may be our best path)?
Click to expand...

You do not need a surround AV receiver for a 2.0 or 2.1 setup. A 2-channel amp setup is generally better for music. In case you really want room correction, there are still computer software solutions.

You can use a REL subwoofer even if you don't have any subwoofer output port from any 2-channel equipment. (I run a 4.1 setup with REL.)

If you think there is a possibility of adding an AV receiver in the future, you need the HT Bypass feature from a pre-amp or integrated amp. I use it regularly with my STP-SE - Job 225.
 
I had the Job 225 amp for a while. Wonderful amp, but as Jack said, it is a bit picky, high input gain, etc. The Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE preamplifier is a true giant killer and a great choice. I had a W4S class D amp for a while. I thought it sounded very good, but it had far too much power for my needs. Class D tend to give lots of power, usually at reasonable costs, and they run cool. Some, such as me, prefer the sound quality of tubes and/or Pure Class A. All personal preference.

I ended up choosing sound quality over power. A pure class A amplifier gave me what I prefer in sound quality. Not a ton of power, but all I need. Nelson Pass's First Watt is a true gem in my book, but like all of the others being discussed, it has its limitations. I also have an old tube amplifier for a change of pace.
 
2FlyingYorkies said:
After a long absence from the world of audio, my wife and I have decided that our ears can no longer stand our 20-year-old college era equipment, and we need to start over. I'm hoping the forum can give us some advice on the state of things today, and how to wisely invest in new gear.

We do not have a dedicated media room. The space is a large open square-ish area of about 30x31 overall that combines living/audio (16x18), kitchen (16x13, behind the sofa), dining (14x12, to the right of the front media wall), and entry/stairs leading down (the remaining quadrant, 20x12 irregular shape). Wood floors, large windows, and modern decor. Since it's all open, and because it's the main gathering/living space in the house, we have some aesthetic limitations on speakers and other accessories. It has to be a stylish modern living area first, hifi haven second. Electronics will need to be out of sight, and speakers will have to pass a visual test just as much as a sonic one. Our taste in music covers a wide range from chamber and large scale symphonic to top-40 pop and everything in between. We want a system that is truly full range, meaning bass response flat to at least 30hz, but are trying hard to do that without needing a sub (primarily for space and aesthetic reasons). Preference is for a fairly neutral sound that is quick and tight, but perhaps erring towards being slightly forgiving in the upper register. Not looking to have our ears bleed from bright trumpets...

One of my biggest concerns is which path to take on electronics. This will be a music system that's also connected to the TV for movies, but there will be no surround sound - 2.0 or 2.1 at the most. I was planning to use something like the Oppo 205 as a source for music and movies, but what should I connect it to for best sound quality? Just a straight 2-channel preamp via balanced outputs, and let the player handle DAC duties and downmix multichannel movie audio? A surround processor via HDMI that will do the downmixing and DAC functions, and provide add room correction and LFE management (remember the aesthetic limitations - acoustic treatments will be a very tough sell, so electronic correction may be our best path)? It's probably obvious from the tone of the questions, but this will be a solid state system - no tubes. Our music is all currently on redbook CD, but we'd like to try streaming from Tidal or similar too.

We've done a fair amount of research on equipment, as well as some auditioning, but there are a lot of unanswered questions.

Candidates for speakers include: Focal Sopra 3, B&W 802d3, Revel Ultima Salon 2, GoldenEar Reference (the budget option when it hits the market in month or two). Open to other suggestions, but these are the ones we've been able to audition and have liked. The B&W represents the upper limit of the budget for speakers. A number of other speakers have been scratched from the list for various reasons (aesthetic and/or acoustic): Acoustic Zen Crescendo, Canton Reference 3k, Magico S5, Legacy Focus, Paradigm Persona 7F.

Electronics budget is ~$10k and under, and is much more likely to be subject to future upgrades than the speakers. Particularly interested in suggestions here. The equipment will all need to live inside a piece of furniture (like a Salamander credenza cabinet), so giant pure class-A amps that double as space heaters probably aren't a good idea. I'm open to the idea of Class D where appropriate.

Oh, and in case anyone is wondering what our current (20+ year-old and throw-away) starting point is: VMPS Mini Tower IIA speakers, Yamaha receiver or B&K Pro10 MC preamp / EX4420 amp, generic Samsung Blu-Ray player, Tara Labs Prism and Spectrum cables. The best we could hope to afford on a mid-90's college budget, but obviously not up to par any longer.

I have plenty more questions, but this is already too long for a single post... Thanks for any input or suggestions you might have!
Click to expand...

If doing both movies and audio , Martin logan speakers, look no further ..........
 
If it fits your budget, I think the combo of focal sopra 3 and Jeff Rowland continuum S2 integrated (class d) might suit your needs. both are absolutely gorgeous, and I have heard this combo and was impressed with the sound. Use the oppo as your front end.
 
Thanks for the continued suggestions. The W4S and Nord amps sound interesting, as does the Jeff Rowland (though at nearly $10k, it stretches the budget a bit). I also came across AVM in my research last night - their Evolution SD 3.2 preamp/DAC/streamer unit looks very interesting on paper. Anyone know anything about AVM? The Absolute Sound seems to like them at various price points.

One other point I could use some help with, having received all of these excellent suggestions for products that don't physically exist here in Kansas: How does one pick when they're not on hand to be listened to? Is it typical for out-of-state retailers to consign equipment of this caliber for a few days/weeks? Or are return policies generous enough to allow for a buy-audition-return cycle?
 
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