Speaker setup

Devg said:
if you religiously follow Cardas method, it will put the speakers either right in the middle of the room (.447) or they are too close to each other (thus narrowing down the soundstage). I have never found it effective in my room.
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The "middle of the room" would only occur in a square room. In most rooms (say 14' by 20') they will be about a third of the way into the room. As far as distance between the speakers, that doesn't matter so much in the super-near field listening position recommended by Cardas, but I think most us are happier with the listening position Jim recommends, and the Cardas method may not be compatible with that,
 
Here’s my free million dollar idea - a well built, fine material listening chair on a track allowing you to slide forward or back 4”- 6”


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Honestly I'm always struggling with finding the correct position for my speakers. My living room is about 410*620cm. According to the manufacturer I can place my speakers fairly close to the side walls and at least 2.5 meters apart.
 
Mordante said:
Honestly I'm always struggling with finding the correct position for my speakers. My living room is about 410*620cm. According to the manufacturer I can place my speakers fairly close to the side walls and at least 2.5 meters apart.
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That’s the issue. These are just manufacturer guidelines. People who think some cleverly named speaker setup program is the panacea for setup in all rooms, regardless of size, shape and layout, not to mention accompanying items in that room, wall types and more are fooling themselves. One doesn’t even mention necessary measurement and location of the seating position. The starting point. Geesh.


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Mike said:
That’s the issue. These are just manufacturer guidelines. People who think some cleverly named speaker setup program is the panacea for setup in all rooms, regardless of size, shape and layout, not to mention accompanying items in that room, wall types and more are fooling themselves. One doesn’t even mention necessary measurement and location of the seating position. The starting point. Geesh.


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Click to expand...
My two cents on the subject. Manufacturers suggestions are just that a suggestion.
This Industry has big issues with facts. Its easy to see from many pictures of systems that they really cant sound there best just by the lovely symmetrical placement of all the gear lined up like soldiers along the back wall.
No one wants to tell you that speakers should not be near walls and corners or in fact that you actually need to hook them to wires LOL see all advertising pictures of speakers without them!!!
Clients always ask me the same questions about how far from the walls and the answer is never a simple 32 inches or 40 inches. Set up in a room takes time and listening. The more you invest the more you get out. Rule ! - DO NOT BE AFRAID TO MOVE THE SPEAKERS. You can start and mark where you had them if your afraid.
Take a quality recording with a good constant bass track, move the speakers an inch or two at at time to start and then as you get closer move them smaller distances until they are in the right place. I know this is a simplification and I have found people would rather buy all kinds of expensive qizmo's but never want to pay someone , if they can't to set their system up.
I have never used Jim Smith's services but I have heard many highly complimentary statements about his work. I have also found that when I was a dealer that most customers think they know how and that they don't need expertise particularly if they have to pay someone.
In all my years in Audio I have to admit that I have heard very few systems that were set up to the max. Sad but true and I have been invited to some very high end systems that were just dreadful.This includes many manufacturers showrooms, dealers showrooms, consumers and of course high end shows. Shows are for the most part just to give you an idea of the product since its a hotel and there is limited time to get the system set up in a marginal space. IMHO the positioning of the speakers is the most important item in getting GREAT sound no matter the price range.

#MOVETHEM
 
BendingWave said:
My two cents on the subject. Manufacturers suggestions are just that a suggestion.
This Industry has big issues with facts. Its easy to see from many pictures of systems that they really cant sound there best just by the lovely symmetrical placement of all the gear lined up like soldiers along the back wall.
No one wants to tell you that speakers should not be near walls and corners or in fact that you actually need to hook them to wires LOL see all advertising pictures of speakers without them!!!
Clients always ask me the same questions about how far from the walls and the answer is never a simple 32 inches or 40 inches. Set up in a room takes time and listening. The more you invest the more you get out. Rule ! - DO NOT BE AFRAID TO MOVE THE SPEAKERS. You can start and mark where you had them if your afraid.
Take a quality recording with a good constant bass track, move the speakers an inch or two at at time to start and then as you get closer move them smaller distances until they are in the right place. I know this is a simplification and I have found people would rather buy all kinds of expensive qizmo's but never want to pay someone , if they can't to set their system up.
I have never used Jim Smith's services but I have heard many highly complimentary statements about his work. I have also found that when I was a dealer that most customers think they know how and that they don't need expertise particularly if they have to pay someone.
In all my years in Audio I have to admit that I have heard very few systems that were set up to the max. Sad but true and I have been invited to some very high end systems that were just dreadful.This includes many manufacturers showrooms, dealers showrooms, consumers and of course high end shows.

Shows are for the most part just to give you an idea of the product since its a hotel and there is limited time to get the system set up in a marginal space. IMHO the positioning of the speakers is the most important item in getting GREAT sound no matter the price range.

#MOVETHEM
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BINGO! And move the seating position - even more critical or as critical at least.

Trust me, I’ve gone into clients rooms that have apparently had their speaker manufacturer sales rep trained in some house program and it was terrible.

Thankfully I’ve learned a lot from Jim and can apply some of his wonderful techniques in setup.



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Yes of course Mike that's correct. I see sitting positions that are against or very near the wall and people using chairs made for sleeping with huge high head rest areas that also influence what our ears receive. All of these issues will change and affect the sound you hear.
Do not be afraid to move it move it!!!
 
BendingWave said:
In all my years in Audio I have to admit that I have heard very few systems that were set up to the max. Sad but true and I have been invited to some very high end systems that were just dreadful.This includes many manufacturers showrooms, dealers showrooms, consumers and of course high end shows. Shows are for the most part just to give you an idea of the product since its a hotel and there is limited time to get the system set up in a marginal space. IMHO the positioning of the speakers is the most important item in getting GREAT sound no matter the price range.

#MOVETHEM
Click to expand...

The other thing to consider is acoustics. Over the years I must have spent far more time and energy trying to improve the acoustics of my room than auditioning and choosing components. The result, while still far from perfect, seems to be quite good, given not just my own satisfaction, but the feedback from others. But of course it is far sexier choosing the next shiny component than toiling with positioning/choosing of carpets, tube traps, diffusing or absorbing panels, or installing window plugs -- and precisely dialing in your speakers. But the latter things may be much more efficient in giving you great sound than that new shiny component. Not that the latter may not be desirable, once you have also worked on those other issues :)
 
BendingWave said:
My two cents on the subject. Manufacturers suggestions are just that a suggestion.
This Industry has big issues with facts. Its easy to see from many pictures of systems that they really cant sound there best just by the lovely symmetrical placement of all the gear lined up like soldiers along the back wall.
No one wants to tell you that speakers should not be near walls and corners or in fact that you actually need to hook them to wires LOL see all advertising pictures of speakers without them!!!
Clients always ask me the same questions about how far from the walls and the answer is never a simple 32 inches or 40 inches. Set up in a room takes time and listening. The more you invest the more you get out. Rule ! - DO NOT BE AFRAID TO MOVE THE SPEAKERS. You can start and mark where you had them if your afraid.
Take a quality recording with a good constant bass track, move the speakers an inch or two at at time to start and then as you get closer move them smaller distances until they are in the right place. I know this is a simplification and I have found people would rather buy all kinds of expensive qizmo's but never want to pay someone , if they can't to set their system up.
I have never used Jim Smith's services but I have heard many highly complimentary statements about his work. I have also found that when I was a dealer that most customers think they know how and that they don't need expertise particularly if they have to pay someone.
In all my years in Audio I have to admit that I have heard very few systems that were set up to the max. Sad but true and I have been invited to some very high end systems that were just dreadful.This includes many manufacturers showrooms, dealers showrooms, consumers and of course high end shows. Shows are for the most part just to give you an idea of the product since its a hotel and there is limited time to get the system set up in a marginal space. IMHO the positioning of the speakers is the most important item in getting GREAT sound no matter the price range.

#MOVETHEM
Click to expand...

Some really good advice here. New speakers have landed with me Harbeth P3ESR and I have been moving them like never before. Been reading up on Jim Smith too, nothing beats experience in this area. It’s been a real education how small movements can change things. This includes toe in for image vs treble energy. It’s been great fun and I have increased the systems performance.
 
Jim Smith said:
One more question/comment - how can all of the guides/techniques be so different and yet all are supposed to be best? Just asking...
Click to expand...


I love the question Jim. I hate formulas like the equilateral triangle and specific toe-in instructions used universally. Every speaker is different just like every room is different. Rear port, front port, needs reinforcement, needs space... so many different design philosophies.

I went into a client's house one time and he had been telling me how bad his room was. He even called GIK to get help and they gave up on it given the dimensions, layout, and varying wall constructions. After spending 2 hours moving his stuff around every which way, I told him he should give up and buy headphones (jokingly of course, but some sincerity there). It was the most dumbfounding experience I have ever had and I refuse to set foot in that room again. His room was the equivalent of the Audiophile's Bermuda Triangle.
 
Huuummm... i have my doubts here. I know that speaker position is important, but, if the system is "right", i think is more a matter of taste. Let me try to explain. I prefer them pointed directly to me, but i could live with them in a parallel position. More focus versus a bigger soundstage. I also prefer them to be far away from each other, but with them close there´s no danger of any hole in the sound.
Always a tradeoff. I think that´s why this is a never ending talk

To me, the most important thing about a speaker (i´m talking about dynamic speakers), the real thing that can real damage and compromise all the performance of a system, more than the position, is the way they contact to the floor. In my opinion you must solve two problems; dissipate the speaker vibrations to the floor, and prevent the vibrations of the floor from going to the loudspeaker. This point is so important that can affect the sound in a dangerous way, no matter the quality of the gear behind or the acoustics of the room. Do all the experiences you want and you will see…
 
Okay, I think I’ve removed most if not all the offensive posts.

Please keep the negative, at best and blatantly obviously mean at worst, comments out of public view.

If anyone has anything bad to say (especially about someone else), STOP, do not do it. I don’t like it and others, members or casual observers, don’t like to see it either.
 
joeinid said:
Okay, I think I’ve removed most if not all the offensive posts.

Please keep the negative, at best and blatantly obviously mean at worst, comments out of public view.

If anyone has anything bad to say (especially about someone else), STOP, do not do it. I don’t like it and others, members or casual observers, don’t like to see it either.
Click to expand...

Well done.
 
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