Speaker placement and setup question?

[Pdough]

Hi,


I recently joined this forum but recognize many of your names from other forums. I'm new to hifi audio and usually don't contribute to the discussions but I really enjoy reading your responses and have learned quite a bit.


This is the first thread I've started. I need some advise on speaker and equipment placement in my family room. I need to decide whether or not to have built-in cabinets installed around the fireplace. I don't have a dedicated listening room so my family room will serve as my main listening room for 2ch and HT. My audio equipment which I'll hopefully be upgrading within the next year consists of a Marantz receiver and Goldenear Triton Two speakers. My upgrade plan is to move to separates but to continue using my current speakers.


I will try to attach a photo but here's a description of the room. It's 17ft x 16ft. The audio equipment and speakers will go along the 17ft wall on both sides of a fireplace that is flush with the wall. The fireplace is 5ft 3/4in wide. It's not quite in the center of the wall - it's 5ft 11-1/2in from the left side wall and 6ft 4-1/2in from the right side wall. The back of the room is open to the kitchen. The listening position will be about 12-13ft from the speaker baffle if the speakers are about 8in from the back wall.


Here's where I need your advise. I originally planned on having custom cabinets built in to each side of the fireplace. The cabinets were going to be about 4 x 3 x 2 ft (H x W X D). I was planning on placing the speakers next to the cabinets but If I go with this plan then I won't be able to place the speakers closer than 11ft 3in apart and that's if they are place right next to the cabinets. Also the cabinets will be between the speakers which I have heard is not the best idea.


Alternatively, I can have the cabinets made a foot more narrow (4 x 2 x 2 ft) which means the speakers can then be placed closer together - about 9ft 5in if placed right next to the cabinets. However, the cabinets will still be between the speakers.


The last option (which I am leaning towards) would be to get a free-standing audio rack and place it in the corner. That way I won't have any cabinets between the speakers and I'll have more freedom to place my speakers. The speakers could then be as close as 6ft apart or up to probably 12ft apart if necessary.


Is having built-in cabinets between the speakers suboptimal? Since my listening position will be about 12-13ft from the speakers I take it optimal speaker width should be around 9ft (I remember seeing a formula for speaker width which was 3/4 x distance of the listening position from the speaker)? For that reason, if I went with the built-in cabinets then the speakers would probably be too far apart?


I want to make the best decisions to optimize the sound. I look forward to your advice. Thanks in advance for the much needed help.


Patrick

 

[joeinid]

Welcome to the forum Patrick!

 

[Pdough]

Thanks for the warm welcome Joe. I'm glad to be a part of the forum.

Patrick

 

[NorthStar]

I want to make the best decisions to optimize the sound. I look forward to your advice. Thanks in advance for the much needed help.


Patrick

Hi Patrick and welcome!

1. The less clutter in your front sound stage, the better.
2. Room treatments.
3. In regards to speakers positioning (space between them, amount of toe-in, listening distance, ...); experiment - listening and measuring.

I don't do everything that I preach, but I prefer the gear behind me or to the side. And nothing between the two main reproducers, or perhaps a nice sculpture or painting on the center wall (nice plants would also be harmonious). ...And a pair of mono amps on stands (on the floor) is appropriate (short running speaker cables).

But in this audio love, everything is permissible and compromises are a decor way of life. ...And there are now DSP EQ everything, specially for tougher situations.
We're no more living in the 50s and 60s; it is the year 2014, and we have much evolved in that regard.

 

[Pdough]

Hans and Bob...thank you both for your replies. You're right Bob I mistakenly posted this thread twice. It was the first thread I have started and of course I goofed it up. I'm not sure if there is some way to delete the other thread?

Hans...Here is a crude and I due mean crude drawing of the cabinets. Hopefull the picture gets the idea across. If I go with the cabinets then they will be installed on the right and left of the fireplace. I will have to place the speakers to the right and left of the cabinets which will limit how close the speaker width will be. If I go with the smallest cabinets and place the speaders so they are touching the cabinets (which I would never do) the closet I could get the speakers would be 9 1/2 ft apart. With proper spacing away from the cabinets I bet the speakers would be closer to at least 11 ft apart. My listening postion will be 12-13 ft from the speakers so I'm worried that If I go with the built in cabinets then I may have to place my speakers too far appart negatively effecting sound quality.








Bob...Your comment about less clutter in the front sound stage confirms what I was thinking. Since the cabinets will stick out two feet from the back wall right between the speakers I'm sure it would have some impact on sound quality and probably not for the better. I also agree with you that most of us will end up making some sort of compromise when it comes to gear placement and home decor. That said, my wife is very sweet and is letting me call the shots when it comes to the familyroom, provided I don't do something too crazy. Therefore, I'm leaning towards not installing built-in cabinets since that would ultimately limit speaker and gear placement, not to mention the overall sound of the system. Also, room treatments will definitely have to come into the picture when I get everything set up.

Thanks again for the help,
Patrick

 

[NorthStar]

Some speakers are designed to be closer the the front and side walls, most aren't; they sing best with space around them.
It's pretty much the same with human voices (singers).

By the way Patrick, your idea on where to put your two audio racks is fine. ...And if they are open racks the better.
Also, they could be in both front corners, or if you have only few components, say something like five or six, you can have a single audio rack in the front right corner, or even along the left side wall, say five feet or so from the front wall.

And, if in the future you intend to put a screen display above your fireplace (flat panel or drop-screen), your original idea is still valid. And the two front corners would be good positions for subwoofers. Yes, two subs are better that one lonely one; for better overall balance of the lows, and at more listening positions.

The two front main speakers would like to be some four feet or so from the front wall, measured from the back.
And a stand in the center for the center channel speaker.

A good standard for good sound at the listening position is the rule of thirds (or fifths, or sevenths, or ninths):
Front plane of the speakers positioned at one third length of your room, and at one fifth on each side from their respective side wall. Then yourself sitting at two thirds (length) from your front wall, or 3/5th, or 4/5th, or 5/7th, ...
...Always measuring from the voice coil of the mid-range driver. If you don't have a mid-range driver; between the tweeter and the higher woofer.

____________

- Your room is 17 feet long by 16 feet wide; so 1/3rd of 17 feet is 5.66 feet, or 1/5th is 3.4 feet. ...Etc., etc., etc.
If you are sitting 12 feet or so from your speakers positioned at 3.4 feet from the front wall (mid-range drivers), then you'll be sitting (your ears) at roughly 13.6 feet from the front wall (4/5ths), and better sit at around ten feet now from your two main front speakers, because you only have 3.4 feet behind you (rear wall), and you don't want to be closer to that wall.

-- Use that formula for your speakers positioning from the side walls as well (say 3.2 feet from each respective side wall, or 1/5th of 16 feet).

* It works also with 1/7 (2/7, ...), 1/9 (2/9, ...) fractions. Just use the ones that work best in your own room and with your furniture, etc.

One thing that most people don't know: Sit off center from dead center (width of your room), say by few inches or so, like 7.75 feet from one side wall and 8.25 feet from the other. It is a more balanced spot, with less peaks and dips.

____________

As it is now, your room is extremely reflective; so eventually some absorption panels and bass traps would be highly beneficial, for best balanced sound distribution. ...But I know you know that.

Take your time; make that room a sanctuary for listening to music in harmony and watching cinema in comfort.
...One step at a time...

 

[MusicDirector]

I don't do everything that I preach, but I prefer the gear behind me or to the side. And nothing between the two main reproducers, or perhaps a nice sculpture or painting on the center wall (nice plants would also be harmonious). ...And a pair of mono amps on stands (on the floor) is appropriate (short running speaker cables).

But in this audio love, everything is permissible and compromises are a decor way of life. ...And there are now DSP EQ everything, specially for tougher situations.
We're no more living in the 50s and 60s; it is the year 2014, and we have much evolved in that regard.

I would love to try having the gear elsewhere and nothing between the mains, but my current room does not allow for it. It doesn't even allow proper distance between the mains and forget about sub crawling. On the other hand, I find that if one must have gear centrally located to the speakers, if you move the speakers or the gear rack back so the the speakers are just a touch ahead of the gear, it eliminates any problems in that regard.
Also, while not the case with my big system, sometimes the gear is delicious enough to have displayed such as the case with the vintage persuasion.

As to no more living in the 50's and 60's" That doesn't apply to me. LOL! I'm still in the 60's and early 70s as much as I can be. To me some of this modern stuff lacks purpose to me, but then some of it is pure magic to me.

 

[NorthStar]

I know Eric, I simply described first the true 'audiophile' way.

And yes, the front plane of the speakers ahead (in front) of everything in the middle and at the sides; gear and all.
In my main room the audio/video rack is two feet from the front wall (measured from the rear of my rack),
but my speakers are six feet from that front wall (measured from the front plane).

In the 50s I was watching a B&W tubed TV. ...And listening to the r.a.d.i.o. ...Turntables and 8-track & cassette tapes in the 60s, and 70s. ...CDs? The next decade after, from 1986.
Back in the 50s and 60s there were no DSP Room Correction systems. ...Hence my reference compared to today.

_______________________

* My favorite high-end audiophile rooms are the ones with all the gear at the rear of the room, behind the listener;
except for the two mono or four (bi-amped) amplifiers on floor stands near the two big tower speakers (true full range).

 

[NorthStar]

Some quick examples Eric ::

____________________

____________________

____________________

Or this too ::

____________________
____________________

And, for good measure ::

____________________

Sorry Patrick.

 

[Pdough]

Some speakers are designed to be closer the the front and side walls, most aren't; they sing best with space around them.
It's pretty much the same with human voices (singers).

By the way Patrick, your idea on where to put your two audio racks is fine. ...And if they are open racks the better.
Also, they could be in both front corners, or if you have only few components, say something like five or six, you can have a single audio rack in the front right corner, or even along the left side wall, say five feet or so from the front wall.

And, if in the future you intend to put a screen display above your fireplace (flat panel or drop-screen), your original idea is still valid. And the two front corners would be good positions for subwoofers. Yes, two subs are better that one lonely one; for better overall balance of the lows, and at more listening positions.

The two front main speakers would like to be some four feet or so from the front wall, measured from the back.
And a stand in the center for the center channel speaker.

A good standard for good sound at the listening position is the rule of thirds (or fifths, or sevenths, or ninths):
Front plane of the speakers positioned at one third length of your room, and at one fifth on each side from their respective side wall. Then yourself sitting at two thirds (length) from your front wall, or 3/5th, or 4/5th, or 5/7th, ...
...Always measuring from the voice coil of the mid-range driver. If you don't have a mid-range driver; between the tweeter and the higher woofer.

____________

- Your room is 17 feet long by 16 feet wide; so 1/3rd of 17 feet is 5.66 feet, or 1/5th is 3.4 feet. ...Etc., etc., etc.
If you are sitting 12 feet or so from your speakers positioned at 3.4 feet from the front wall (mid-range drivers), then you'll be sitting (your ears) at roughly 13.6 feet from the front wall (4/5ths), and better sit at around ten feet now from your two main front speakers, because you only have 3.4 feet behind you (rear wall), and you don't want to be closer to that wall.

-- Use that formula for your speakers positioning from the side walls as well (say 3.2 feet from each respective side wall, or 1/5th of 16 feet).

* It works also with 1/7 (2/7, ...), 1/9 (2/9, ...) fractions. Just use the ones that work best in your own room and with your furniture, etc.

One thing that most people don't know: Sit off center from dead center (width of your room), say by few inches or so, like 7.75 feet from one side wall and 8.25 feet from the other. It is a more balanced spot, with less peaks and dips.

____________

As it is now, your room is extremely reflective; so eventually some absorption panels and bass traps would be highly beneficial, for best balanced sound distribution. ...But I know you know that.

Take your time; make that room a sanctuary for listening to music in harmony and watching cinema in comfort.
...One step at a time...

Bob...thanks for the thoughtful reply and sage advice. I agree with you, I'm going to take it slowly. Before I go putting in permanent built-in cabinets, I think I'll buy a free standing audio rack and see where everything sounds best.

Patrick

 

[Pdough]

Great pictures. Something to aspire towards.

 

[NorthStar]

...And a higher-paid job?

 

[MusicDirector]

Some quick examples Eric ::

​

And, for good measure ::

​

____________________

Sorry Patrick.

I don't what that Griffin thing is or what the Chinese girls have to do with anything. I don't understand non-sequator statements or items. I'm much more interested in the object on the end-table in the pic above. What is that? If I even think it might glow blue, I want it.

~Eric
I'm glad those aren't my speakers. I can't imagine them being efficient. Besides, I could not get even one of them into my apartment, it would not even fit through the door.

 

[NorthStar]

I don't what that Griffin thing is or what the Chinese girls* have to do with anything. I don't understand non-sequator statements or items. I'm much more interested in the object on the end-table in the pic above. What is that? If I even think it might glow blue, I want it.

When you put your hand above it, and then touch it, you are instantly transported to a four-dimensional audio world; ten million times better than live music, sitting @ the best seat in the house during a Classical Opera concert of the best hall in the world (Vienna).

* The Chinese girls are only a diversion; to test your level of music listening concentration.

...Gryphon, the Gryphon's room. ...Ultra hi-hiend.

 

[NorthStar]

No, not between the speakers; but on the end-table right next to the lamp, near the main listening chair (foreground).

 

[watchdog]

That's an IPC LP Energizer. You mean you guys don't have one ? :lol:

IPC - LP Energizer

 

[NorthStar]

That's an IPC LP Energizer. You mean you guys don't have one ? :lol:

IPC - LP Energizer

And the smaller circular "ring finger looking" device* is a CD Energizer.

Ok, we're good to go now. ...Into the next highest firmament level.

* I first thought that it was an illuminated 'ejector/vaporizer' emergency button for people interrupting the music audition.

 

[NorthStar]

A nice carpet in Patrick's room will also contribute to a more relaxant sound.

And by all means Patrick; your project of building shelves on both side of your fireplace is a good one. ...And they don't have to be fixed permanently (attached) to the wall, but simple/solid audio racks that you can easily move anytime, anywhere.

Question: Is the fireplace going to be used ; and if so with wood or gas?

 

[MusicDirector]

When you put your hand above it, and then touch it, you are instantly transported to a four-dimensional audio world; ten million times better than live music, sitting @ the best seat in the house during a Classical Opera concert of the best hall in the world (Vienna).

* The Chinese girls are only a diversion; to test your level of music listening concentration.

...Gryphon, the Gryphon's room. ...Ultra hi-hiend.

LOL! If that's what the device does, I'll take one! How much are they?

Well then I'd say I passed the test of music listening concentration with flying colors. I'm like a focused laser beam I guess.:audiophile:

 

[MusicDirector]

Wait a minute, you mean that thing on the end table is real?! Just a moment....be right back.
Oh damn! I never should have clicked on that link! Made me sick to find out its a $4000 AA battery operated plastic piece of snake oil! I was hoping it was at least art. (Well, it is said that if you don't what it is, it must be art). According to the claims, I guess those amongst us who have the $4k record cleaner will be sad to learn that the $4k RCM is no good unless you also have one of these LP Energizers. Oh brother! This kind of thing really gets under my skin, but as PT Barnum said, there's one born every minute.

I so wanted it to be just an artistic light or something for $20 or something. I may well have sprung for it. Oh well.