Speaker & IC cable recommendations for Alexia/ARC pairing

Bobvin

Bobvin

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I was at the Music Matters event last week up in Seattle. Mikey Fremer was there, John Atkison, and of course the reps for ARC and Wilson. Wilson was showing off, for the first time, the new Sabrina, and ARC was driving the speakers with GS amp and pre. Wires were Transparent Gen 5. AMG showing off the new smaller table with the new cartridge. The sound was fantastic, those Sabrina speakers I believe will be ~$17K, and in my opinion outperformed the Sophias, at least up through the 2nd generation of same. What killed me was the bass response was so much more defined that I hear at home. (Room acoustics I'm sure contributed somewhat)

Now my rig is, I believe, overall a bit better with Alexias, ARC Ref10, REF75 (w KT150 tubes), AMG V12, Benz LPs. The weak point in my system is cabling. I have always been impressed with the bass clarity, punch, and overall definition of the Transparent cables, but I just cannot justify those lofty prices for wires. I mean really, $30K for Opus interconnects? Hell, thats what the two chassis REF10 costs. I get it, the results are what counts, but for those of us not professional athletes or hedge fund managers, spending that kind of cash on cables is just tough to imagine.

Currently, I have some old Audioquest Volcano speaker cables (with the battery powered dialectic), and Cardas Golden Reference interconnects. I greatly enjoy my Shunyata PCs. What I feel is lacking is bass response, it just seems a little cloudy. Using the description from Mike's cable shoot-out post, the bass response I'm hearing seems to be viewed through a few sheets of thick glass. Not that the bass response isn't there, it just doesn't seem as clean and sharp as say the mids and upper octaves. (I hope I'm speaking with vocabulary somebody will understand!)

There has been a fair amount of churn on cables lately here on the Shark, Ansuz, Kimber, Audience, Wireworld, Kabula-Sosna etc. I have not heard much from Sharks about Transparent cables, so many must think there are better more cost effective options. I have to believe so. I am tempted to consider Shunyata speaker and ICs, because I like what they do with Power cords, but speaker and ICs are different.

Obviously, I am constrained by availability of demo wires, so suggestions of some wild unobtainium products is discouraged. Who's had successful pairings of ARC with Wilson, what did you like, and what did you feel could have been better?
 
Bob-Your bass issues could well be room related more than cable related. How much effort have you put into moving your speakers around to find the spot where bass integrates the best into your room and have you done any room treatments?
 
mep said:
Bob-Your bass issues could well be room related more than cable related. How much effort have you put into moving your speakers around to find the spot where bass integrates the best into your room and have you done any room treatments?
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Well, I've not tinkered with the placement of the Alexias after the dealer spent nearly 6 hours on setup. He setup my Sashas back at the house up in Seattle area, and he sets up most of the speakers at the dealers. I trust his ear and fear I'd only f' things up. The room really doesn't have bass issues that I've noted as it is open to the house. Unlike my prior room which closed off and had cathedral ceilings, that room had bass issues that took a lot to tame. But the slightly cloudy bass (lack of transparency) was also something I noted on the Sashas, I've just not had that crisp detail I usually hear when at the dealers and they're using the Transparent cables. After last Thursday's visit, the difference in what I'm hearing here and what I heard there was apparent enough to make a change. (Also, my rig is still breaking in, so at under 200 hours I know I'm not hearing everything the Ref10/REF75 can deliver, and I expect the bass will improve somewhat due to continued break-in. That bass response I hear at the dealers, vs what I'm hearing is tough to get out of my head, and I try to not be terribly impulsive in this hobby.
 
Bob,

First, thanks for the short write up on the Music Matters event.

I use all Shunyata in my system. Like you, I cannot justify spending the kind of money that some of these companies are charging - hard to understand how an 8' cable could be worth $30K. Shunyata cables have terrific performance for a reasonable price.

Last year I upgraded my speaker cable to the Z-Anaconda. My prior cable was Shunyatas own Black Mamba. The improvement was significant - quieter, a much larger stage, more detail and a tighter bass - wow!

Recently, I visited a friend in Dallas that has an ARC-Wilson (Ref Series and Alexias) system. His system has a combination of Kimber, Shunyata and AQ cables. Kimber for interconnects and speaker wire. PCs are Shunyata. And, Ethernet cables are AQ. His system sounded sublime.

Reality is that we can leverage some of the comments/opinion from our audio friends, speak to manufacturers, read reviews...but, what really matters is to try different brands and listen. We need to trust our ears. This does take a lot of time and a dealer that is willing to lend cables or take advantage of The Cable Company cable lending program.

Keep us posted!
 
Mike is right, the Cable Company can be a great place to use, if you don't have a friendly dealer. No secret about my love of Kimber sp cables. I also use combination of Shunyata IC's and Kimber Select 6063 copper sp cables.
The Kimber sp cables will definitely remove the veiled bass response you alluded to.

Bob, you have some world class gear, it deserves some better cabling.
 
Bobvin said:
Well, I've not tinkered with the placement of the Alexias after the dealer spent nearly 6 hours on setup. He setup my Sashas back at the house up in Seattle area, and he sets up most of the speakers at the dealers. I trust his ear and fear I'd only f' things up. The room really doesn't have bass issues that I've noted as it is open to the house. Unlike my prior room which closed off and had cathedral ceilings, that room had bass issues that took a lot to tame. But the slightly cloudy bass (lack of transparency) was also something I noted on the Sashas, I've just not had that crisp detail I usually hear when at the dealers and they're using the Transparent cables. After last Thursday's visit, the difference in what I'm hearing here and what I heard there was apparent enough to make a change. (Also, my rig is still breaking in, so at under 200 hours I know I'm not hearing everything the Ref10/REF75 can deliver, and I expect the bass will improve somewhat due to continued break-in. That bass response I hear at the dealers, vs what I'm hearing is tough to get out of my head, and I try to not be terribly impulsive in this hobby.
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Yeah, I forgot about the zone of neutrality setup method used by Wilson and all the love and care that goes into that. Funny your dealer didn't mention anything about the quality of your bass after the setup. Broken in or not, your speakers should have had much better bass than what you are describing fresh out of the crates. If MIT is supposed to be magic with the Wilson speakers, you don't have to jump to the top of the MIT mountain. If you are leaning towards MIT because you have heard them and you liked them, I would give Uncle Joe Abrams a call at 520 867 8072. Joe gives discounts of around 50% on MIT cables. You tell Joe what your budget is, and Joe will tell you the best MIT cable to buy in that range. Plus, should you decide to upgrade higher up the mountain later on, Joe will take back your cables and apply them towards the next set you buy. I have dealt with Joe numerous times and he is always a joy to work with. Joe will ask you about all of your components before he makes a recommendation for you.

Outside of the above recommendation, it's a jungle out there I tell ya. We have pythons, cobras, and other assorted snakes waiting to bite your wallet. If you notice, people tend to recommend what they own because if they were smart enough to buy it, you should be too. :) And having said that, you would be a fool if you don't purchase a set of Viero Equilibrio Level 3 speaker cables. :P

 
Bob,

+1 on The Cable Company lending library. They have many great brands to try. You don't need to buy all your cables there. Your demo charge can be applied to the purchase of, let's say, a pair of interconnects. Then you can buy the rest of your cables somewhere else at a bigger discount. Their website is worth checking out.

Best,
Ken
 
Bobvin said:
(...) Also, my rig is still breaking in, so at under 200 hours (...)
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IMHO you should not loose your time listening critically to cables before the full burn-in of the system. Just enjoy for the moment.

Remember that most of the time our perception of bass detail and quality is due to very small differences in the midrange zone - it is why cables (both the ICs and the speaker ones, as well as power ) can be so important in the bass. As you are using the ARC 75 do not forget about the Valhalla 2 or the Tyr 2- Nordost cables are famous for their bass slam and detail.
 
Bob, I wish you luck. My struggles with my Alexia's are well documented. I never tried Transparent and I think there might just be the reason why I (and you) heard them on the Alexia's and they sounded so damn good. Transparent reportedly matches the speaker cable to the speaker. I'm not sure of their behind the scenes magic, but maybe others can chime in with the technical specifics.

If I owned Alexia's again, I would make that investment I think.
 
Bob- I would just get some basic copper cables and start from there. Zu, Kimber, etc. You don't have to break the bank, but at least gives you a baseline as you're trying to fix your room/placement.

Then my guess is you are going to have to play with room treatment. If it was on both speakers in your setup and didn't occur at the dealer- its 90% likely your room. Trying to use cables to fix a room is like fixing a Porsche with a coat hanger. In my experience, bass traps add much clarity in the bass and with the Wilson mid-bass bump, might prove very worthy. Do you use any?
 
Bob...if I am understanding your issue correctly, the Alexias are playing low (meaning extension is there) but you are not getting cleanly articulated, punchy bass with clean delineated lines/bass notes. If that is correct, my guess is cabling is probably 3rd or 4th in priority of things to try:

1) wait for full 500-600 hour break-in on Ref 10/75
2) have your dealer come back out if willing after break-in period and let him bring a SS amp bruiser (maybe Dag or something similar) and let him first see if speakers need moving with Ref 75 if bass is still less clean at this point. If he can't tighten up bass, let him sub in SS amp that can control those woofer bins properly and let him reposition. If he gets much tighter bass than Ref 75 might just not have required control of bass drivers to deliver cleanly, articulated bass lines,
3) if SS amp can't deliver a better bass presentation than Ref 75, then my guess there is some speaker/room matching issue that may be potentially corrected with room treatments (again hopefully your dealer can provide some thoughts there),
4) when you have finally gotten above steps dialed in and you are in ball park if bass response/articulation you are seeking, you can fine tune with choice of cabling.

That would be my path to figuring out the bass performance on the Alexias. My best guess is that it's an amp-speaker matching issue. YMMV.
 
Cyril, that is some damn fine advice, Thank you.

And your summation is pretty close. Extension seems to be there, sometimes a little muddy, but usually with reasonable degree of leading transient definition, but dare I use the term 'veiled?' I've not heard a serious SS amp in my rig, but often think of Pass and Dag. There are many who love ARC amps with Wilson, though typically it is noted it is a tough load.

I've yet to fully develop a good relationship with a dealer here in Portland; Seattle had several shops, with Definitive Audio being where I got my Wilsons. I'd venture I could get 'em down to help as you describe.
 
I am not a guru when it comes to Wilson speakers, but i have heard them with both Arc and SS amps including T+A and D Agostino. SS definetly pounds the bass versus the Arc. The Arc's bass was not tight, but more muddy. Did not sound bad, but not tight. I agree with your observation.

All the wilson setups were using Transparent cables. I heard them at Def Audi both in Bellevue and Seattle. I was not impressed with Def Audio set up at all. Heard the Wilson set up again at Sunny Audio in Clovis CA couple weeks back and Wow, they made my ears ring. Yes, heard them both with the ARC amp and SS. Sound great, but bass not tight with ARC.


I have Transparent Reference sc and Ultras for IC through out my system. I have a well balanced sounding system with tight bass. Again, i have a SS set up. I justified the cost by accepting the price of cables to equate a price of one component in my system. For example, my preamp (simaudio 740p) to cost 10,000, thus i spent the same much on cables. Could i have been satified with a lesser (cost) of a cable, probably. For me, its all about having a balanced system. All i can say regards to cable is that i am not a Nordost fan at all. To bright for my liking, but again i have bright speakers.
 
Bob...glad you found it helpful. The nominal impedance ratings on both the Sasha's and the Alexias suggest that they should not be too hard to drive but if I remember correctly both speakers dip below 3ohms in the bass region at some point, so my guess is you need an amp that can provide ample current at that point on the frequency band where the impedance dips. Maybe a stereo D'Ag amp to go with your Ref 10 (before launching his preamp, Dan used to showcase the Momentum amps with Arc pres at audio shows), so could be just right combo to get what you are looking for. In fact Mike (Ritmo) has the Ref 5SE with the D'Ag Momentum stereo amp driving Alexias so he may be a good sounding board if this is something you want to consider.

Good luck.
 
Bobvin said:
Also, my rig is still breaking in, so at under 200 hours I know I'm not hearing everything the Ref10/REF75 can deliver, and I expect the bass will improve somewhat due to continued break-in.
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Hi Bob,

Just out of curiosity, how long is your gear typically powered up and playing music (even in the background at low volume) before you sit down to listen critically?

My experience with ARC amplification (pre and power) is that the longer it's powered up and playing, the better and more robust / accurate it will sound.

If you're only at 200 hours by now maybe you simply just need more days of the 12-18 hours sessions with the system steaming along and stabilizing. And then once it's toasty give a listen to compare.
 
Indeed Mike, that is what I'm going to do now for a bit, just let'r run.

I also made a small change by putting Herbies Footers under the spikes of my Core Audio Furniture racks, and moved the racks just a little further apart. The sound is all there, but not the music. The life has been totally drained away. Now I've got to undo that step, not trivial moving gear and 100lb racks so I can remove the spikes. But then the speakers were placed before I put in the spikes, so perhaps even raising all the gear just a few inches, and a little further apart, changed things too. If moving speakers just a wee bit can make a big change, i suppose changing the reflection point can do the same.

I do have Stillpoints under Amp, pre, and Hydra, so perhaps the spikes can be skipped?
 
Bob,

Do you have KT-150s in your REF 75?

BTW, when I had my REF 75, I tried a full loom (digital, ICs, SCs and PCs) of tuned Transparent Reference cables with my WA Sophia S3s.

After burn-in and a month of listening, I went back to my Audience Au 24 SEs.
 
Bob,

I hope you are pleased with your system once the amp reaches full break in. As Cyril mentioned, I have a combination of ARC-DAG and it sounds terrific with the Aleaxias.

If if I was buying today amplification for the Alexias, I would definitely have the GS150 on my list. I listened to the GS150 with the Ref 10 several weeks ago driving a pair of Wilson XLFs. While the XLFs are very efficient, I could not believe the power and control of the GS. And, it looks great - better than the pictures in my opinion.

Thx!
 
Bob, one of the most important things you can do is determine if you are fighting a simple break in/speaker placement issue or do have a bass node issue in your room. If you have an iPhone, there is a spectrum analyzer app that can be used to identify whether you have a large spike at a certain frequency, for example, at 73hz.

I often used test tones and pink noise, but one of the songs I used was Narrow Daylight by Diana Krall. Lots of good bass notes in the song. If you have that song, give it a whirl and see what kind of nodes pop up on your spectrum analyzer app. I'm guessing you have a room bass node issue in the 65-85hz range.
 
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