Set-Up Advice?

C

Casey

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Hi All - long time reader, first time poster here. Hoping I might be able to get some advice from the community on what I'm sure is a newbie question. I have a pretty simple set-up of two B&W M-1s, B&W 608 sub, Audio-Technica LP120 turntable and an older Yamaha receiver (the model escapes me, but it's probably 8 years old, 5 channel A/V). For the most part, I use this mainly to listen to vinyl and Digital music (metal, rock, blues, jazz). The issue I'm having is with sound quality. Vinyl, in particular, sounds amazing at low volumes: instrument and track separation is great, bass is full but not overwhelming, high end sounds maybe a touch brittle, but overall the sound is rich and detailed. However, as soon as I raise the volume, the bass drops out, the production sounds muddy as hell and the highs tend to blend together. And I'm not talking about ear splitting volume here - just louder than conversation levels. I've tried all kinds of calibration, but can't seem to figure it out. Thought it might be a power issue, but the receiver is rated at 80 watts per channel which should be enough, right? Any suggestions on how to troubleshoot would be welcome ... really want to figure this out. Thanks, all.

Casey
 
Welcome to AS.

Are you using the "direct" mode, the one that allows the music to bypass processing? If so, it could still very well be a power issue. All watts are not created equal and I suspect the B&W would require a bit of current. A lot of A/V receivers stretch power ratings a bit,typically they are given with only 2 channels driven and at 1kHz opposed to a full frequency band being driven. Not many receivers ar built to deal with much less than 8 ohms nominal impedance.

It sure sounds like you are running out of steam from your description. You may also want to go into your speaker set up and make sure the volume settings aren't too far down. You can probably go above -0- some. This may mess up your calibrations if you also do home theater.

A couple of things you can do to solve or test the power theory. You can add a sub and set the crossovers to pull bass out of the B&W's to relieve stress from the receiver amp, or, if you have preamp outputs, try adding a power amp to see if the problem still exists. Maybe you can borrow one before trying to buy something.

Well, one other option, depending on which component you like best. You can replace the B&W with a more efficient speake, like Klipsch, Zu Audio, Sonist Audio, etc.

Personally, I'd opt to replace the receiver with a better amp. If you don't do home theater you could get an integrated amp to do the trick.

One other thing, does the receiver sound like that with all sources? If so, all the above. If not, meaning just on turntable, , there could just be an input or set up issue with that.
 
Casey,

Welcome!

Right from the B&W website we get:

[TABLE="class: specTable"]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Sensitivity
[/TD]
[TD]85dB spl (2.83V, 1m)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Nominal impedance[/TD]
[TD]8Ω (minimum 4Ω)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Well, 85 dB is on the low side and B&W is telling us that the impedance dips to 4-ohms at times. Most probably that's just above 100Hz and below 200Hz as is the case with most speaker... AND it just so happens to be where there is a LOT of energy/information in most recordings too. So although I might be wrong, if I were a betting man it sounds to me like the current-limit protection circuit is kicking in with your Yamaha. Then for starters, most Asian A/V receivers from years past were a bit "liberal" with their power ratings,so that doesn't help.

So, it will probably do the 80w/ch. fine... assuming the speaker impedance doesn't ever drop below 6-ohms -- which is a fairly common DC resistance spec for a lot of 8-ohm woofers. You see, the impedance of a speaker can never go lower than its DC value. BUT, there are woofers with more powerful motor structures (like you'd tend to expect from B&W), and those can exhibit high inductance which raises the impedance spec at upper bass/midrange frequencies. Therefore the manufacturer of the speaker can claim it's an 8-ohm design, but there can also be (usually is) a nasty dip in the range I mentioned above.

So unless something is outright "busted," I'd say that's what is going on. If you have another pair of speakers to try that are a little more sensitive, that should help tell the tale. If they play considerably louder than your M-1s and the bass is solid, then to remedy the problem you'll need either different speakers of a more beefy amp. Good luck and...

Take care,
-Bob
 
Wow - Thanks for the information everyone. I honestly didn't expect this much detail and really appreciate it.

@Mr Peabody, I'm actually running a sub with the crossover set to 90Hz. After a bit of playing around with it that seemed like the best option, but should I perhaps set it lower to, say, 80Hz? I read up on the model (it's a Yamaha RX-V371, discontinued) and it reports rated output at [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]100W (6ohms, 0.9% THD).

@TDSS, all else being equal, sounds like this a power issue. Forgive me ignorance (still a newb), but what does that 85db impedance being on the low side mean?

Casey


[/FONT]
 
Welcome Casey! This is a very friendly and knowledgeable community. Stay connected!
 
Decibels are logarithmic, however, to keep it simple, with the same input signal a speaker rated at 90dB can play much louder than one at 85dB. Even if the B&W impedance was stable it would take a good amount of power to get a 85dB speaker loud. Of course, "loud" is subjective.

If your crossover is set at 90 Hz that's pretty good. Some receivers will allow you to play the low end in both mains and sub, you want to be sure the crossover is working to not send bass below 90 to mains. Are your speakers set to "small" inside the set up menu? If not, try that.

85dB is a bit on the low side of efficient, a receiver usually prefers 88dB or higher.
 
The issue is using an AV receiver to play music. The power rating of AV receiver is not very useful, please do not expect too much. You'd need to get a stereo integrated amplifier for music playback, or if the AV receiver has pre-out, use a stereo power amplifier to drive the front speakers.

If we take the list price $249.95 and divide it by 5 channels, you're getting $50 worth of amplification for one channel (actually less if you account for the cost of DSP and surround format decoding and licenses). By spending more you'd get improved SQ.
 
Couldn’t agree with Peter’s comments more. I made the mistake a few years ago to switch from a decent 2ch system to an A/V system, expecting to get decent 2ch sound plus surround sound for the telly/movies. I couldn’t have been more wrong.
 
Casey said:
@Mr Peabody, I'm actually running a sub with the crossover set to 90Hz. After a bit of playing around with it that seemed like the best option, but should I perhaps set it lower to, say, 80Hz?
Click to expand...
Welcome Casey. Your Yamaha probably has plenty power capability to drive those speakers despite the 4 ohm minimum impedance. Yamaha amp stages can drive 4 ohms no problem, especially in 2ch mode where the power supply for 5+ ch only feeds 2 output stages.
The problem is you B&Ws have tiny 4" midbass drivers, 80-90hz high pass is too low for anything other than lower volumes. Trying raising to 120-150hz, listen if it cleans up the congestion problem. Unfortunately, what such a high XO frequency does, is cause the sub to be localized, i.e. you can hear where the bass is coming from. If at all possible, place the sub as centered between the M-1s as possible, which will help with the overall soundstage when using such a high XO. The issues you are describing are all too common when small satellite type speakers are used. Their "bass" drivers (4" frame, more like 3" diameter cone) are too small to produce clean output at 80-90hz without a relatively high high-pass XO frequency. Raising the XO helps in that regard, but creates the bass localization problem.

cheers,

AJ
 
The 371 does give a rating into 4 & 2 ohms, sure don't double down though, so on paper is not likely what will happen in real world.

And, as I stated above, the truth even worse, the 371 is rated at 1kHZ with only 1 channel driven, so I suspect the 371 gives maybe a true 50 watts per channel into usable clean power. Not ideal with a speaker rated at 85dB. With the sub and a smallish room it could be sufficient, depending on how loud you listen.

Unfortunately, no preamp outputs.
 
Casey, I missed that the M-1 is sold as an HT package (MT-60D), so just saw this review while searching for measurement of M-1, confirming exactly what I stated above. The problem is the tiny "woofer" in the small satellite speakers, being unable to produce bass <100hz without distorting...exactly as predicted by physics. https://www.soundandvision.com/content/test-report-bowers-wilkins-mt-60d-home-theater-speaker-system
The reviewer suggested >110hz to avoid distorting badly. Keeping the speakers relatively close to/or wall mounting will help with the bass...but be detrimental for imaging. It will be a balance. As I suggested, cross high, keep sub centered as possible.
Your AVR has more than enough power to damage these tiny speakers without a highish high pass involved.

cheers,

AJ
 
Repeat after me, "all watts are not created equal." The 371 is rated for a 1Khz signal at [FONT=&quot]100W (6ohms, 0.9% THD), one channel driven. I've seen THD listed as low as 0.001% and as high as 1% at the specified wattage, this is one of the games Mfrs. play. Distortion of 0.9% with the amp driven close to maximum would be clearly audible, especially if the speaker dips below 6ohms. The speaker sensitivity of 85dB means that it takes more power to produce sound of 1dB@1m than a higher rating. I would also choose to upgrade the amp first, and give yourself plenty of headroom for the inevitable upgrade in speakers later :).[/FONT]
 
This is great information. Thanks a lot, everyone.

Sounds like the consensus is that I definitely need more power for the M-1s AND I'll need to adjust the crossover to accomodate the small "woofers" (I hope I haven't already damaged them .. fingers crossed).

So, another newbie question - is there a recommended AVR that can do double duty for home theater/music listening? Alternately, I guess the other option would be to pick up a separate receiver for listening to music. But can you actually switch between two amps/receivers with one pair of speakers?
 
You don't need more power unless you want to blow the speakers. They are already under duress with the power you have. Your current AVR is more than powerful enough to damage those tiny midbass. Read the review with measurements.
 
Try raising the crossover to see how much improvement you get first.

The M1 shows recommended amp power 20 to 100 watts. Why 20 watts with 85dB.... I can't say. You'll always blow a speaker quicker under powering it opposed to over powering it. If the M1 is crossed over to pull the low frequencies out I think you'd be fine with more power, within reason.

In a small system I like the sound of my Marantz receiver, however, a prior Onkyo had more current to control drivers.

I really think if you are considering another receiver the prime feature should be preamp outputs, at least for mains and preferably for 5 channels. This way you have flexibility to add an amp or combine for separate 2-channel system.

There are ways to do both HT and stereo with two systems but even that gets a bit complicated without preamp outputs.
 
It is not so much how much power as what type of power. Yamaha is usually better than your typical Asian A/V manufactures, but not the same thing as, for lack of better terms, "real" amplifiers. The numbers, specifications, really mean next to nothing.

I have seen high quality 25 WPC amplifiers that would drive a semi-hard to drive speaker just fine... I have had 300 WPC amplifiers from highly rated manufactures that do not hold water against others that are rated at 80 WPC (i.e. the T+A I am currently using).

Again, the numbers mean next to nothing unless you are comparing two identically built amplifiers (same manufacture???)...
 
Randy, Yamaha had good gear in the 70's, their A/V receivers drew fire from exaggerating power ratings. I suspect that's why they now have a higher tier A/V line in Avenger. They are also offering an extensive line of integrated but I haven't heard any of them. Not to say they were the only one boastering the ratings.

You're right about watts not being equal. The heart of any amp is the power supply and you aren't going to afford much of one trying to meet a price point of under $300.00 and keep with a feature rich A/V receiver, let alone five channels of amplification.

I'm not down on Yamaha, a friend and I were in Magnolia a few years back and did direct comparison between the flagship Yamaha, Elite and Okyo A/V receivers, going into same speakes. The Yamaha clearly sounded better. You just have to know what you are looking at.

Randy Myers said:
It is not so much how much power as what type of power. Yamaha is usually better than your typical Asian A/V manufactures, but not the same thing as, for lack of better terms, "real" amplifiers. The numbers, specifications, really mean next to nothing.

I have seen high quality 25 WPC amplifiers that would drive a semi-hard to drive speaker just fine... I have had 300 WPC amplifiers from highly rated manufactures that do not hold water against others that are rated at 80 WPC (i.e. the T+A I am currently using).

Again, the numbers mean next to nothing unless you are comparing two identically built amplifiers (same manufacture???)...
Click to expand...
 
Can't disagree with that :)... I know Yamaha used to be pretty darn good, but I had not payed attention to them in a very long time. I do not think any lower level A/V amplifier can do what he is looking for anyway. Quality, not quantity is what matters... I have this proven to me so many times in my life :)....
 
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