u-sound
Active member
i think the idea is separating things.
not that i would understand roon...
not that i would understand roon...
Roon End-point for Soulution 760 DAC
- Thread starter Thoms
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u-sound
Active member
Thoms
Member
- Thread Author
- #23
Hi Mike,
Sorry, not sure I understand what you meen by P2P.
I suppose you're referring to Ethernet noise and noise related to computing-hungry software like the Roon Core.
Regarding Ethernet noise, that is pretty easy: ethernet over optic fibre. Lumin P1, Sonore Signature Rendu and a few others chose that path.
There are other options like audiophile switches: PhoenixNET, EtherRegen, etc.
The traffic generated by HiRes music, even DXD (LPCM 24/352.8), is almost nothing. So a network adapter doing 100Mbits is more than enough and won't generate a lot of noise on the streamer side.
Regarding computing-hungry software like the Roon Core, you can do nothing. The only thing to do is follow Roon Labs advice: put the server somewhere on the network, well away from the HiFi gear. And connect a very simple, yet very well designed, Roon Endpoint to the DAC.
Unfortunately, the only device I know that comes close to that is the Sonore Signature Rendu.
I believe that something with a different design, better much better power supply, a much better clock, etc., doing just one thing (Roon End Point) could, in terms of sound quality, outperform any top-notch server.
Unfortunately, such a Roon Endpoint does not exist.
Most people want more like having access to Qobuz, Tidal, etc. Storing music and serving it directly to the DAC without bothering about network-related issues, which is quite understandable... Hence versatile music servers.
I hope I didn't reply out of scope...:huh:
Randy Myers
Well-known member
Nonsense, they are considered about the best in most every digital music discussions. They are built to run Roon and HQ Player perfectly.
Honestly, calling Roon a computing hungry beast is simply ridicules. I have tried my machine, watching performance and resource usage. Roon hardly makes the needle move, and mine is a two year old machine that is not at the levels of current equipment. Will each use some CPU, some RAM, some drive; sure any software will. Why else get these super powerful machine if we are so afraid of using any resources. It is a complete oxymoron.
Roon is lite weight especially when compared to software such as HQ Player, which is a true heavy resource user. However it greatly increases the sound quality of your digital music.
Here is from Roon:
"Roon is heavier than Other Player
Many Audiophile-grade media players focus on being extremely lightweight and doing nothing but audio playback. This is a tradeoff--they get to offer a simpler approach to sound quality, but they can't offer a rich user experience. At Roon Labs, we aren't willing to sacrifice user experience or functionality at the altar of sound quality--we are determined to provide both at once.
At the same time, this is a bit of an oxymoron. A fully-featured media server doing everything that we want it to do will never be as lightweight as a standalone, single-zone player application. So instead of trying to do the impossible, we've addressed this problem by changing the rules a little bit. Instead of trying to pack a lightweight media player, and heavyweight media server into a computer in your listening room, we provide the tools you need to put space between those pieces--because they really don't belong together anyway.
This is, we feel, the best of both worlds:
Our lightweight playback components (Roon Bridge, Roon Ready devices, and networked endpoints) are much lighter than any media player software out there because all they do is copy audio from a network interface to an audio device. They don't even have to do work to decode your media files!
Our media server can afford to do things that no lightweight player app could do without losing its lightweight status--like automatically fetching and updating metadata for your library in the background, and supporting audiophile-quality playback in the listening room while other members of your household import new content and play audio in other rooms simultaneously."
Honestly, if you want to minimize the sound quality affects of Roon or other software, the best thing you can do is store all of your music internal on M.2 drives. This way there will be no interference from networking and the internal components will cause zero noise...
A lot of it is nonsense and fear tactics. What is consider by most people as the best servers money can buy offer Windows machines, incredible power and tons of storage. Roon and HQ Player run beautifully on them and sound quality wise will compete with most everything out there.
BTW- on my 8-core CPU Roon uses about 2% CPU... in other words, nothing. Roon and HQPlayer runs between 25%-35% if I recall my findings correctly. Again, if a sever can't handle that kind of usage without hiccupping then it is pretty crappy equipment.
Peer to peer network. Lots of network traffic = noise.
I’ve had several discussions with Antipodes recently (they are very interested in Suncoast, but I’m just not sure we have a need). They also place Roon way down the list of their favorites from a sonic perspective. It’s why Taiko is building their own software. The difference between TAS and Roon is night and day.
I love the Roon interface, but prefer the sound from TAS/aurender. We run all three in the store and I run Roon and Aurender at home. Switching back and forth is ear opening.
I would get the Taiko if you want Roon. That way you can switch back and forth and hear the difference. If you’re ok to give up sound quality for sorting, than at least you have both.
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Any Roon-End Point that can output digital to your DAC should do the trick.
But if you don’t want to spend thousands for a component that comes with features that you don’t need, and if you feel comfortable doing some work yourself, you can always build a Roon End Point for about $120 (RAspberry Pi, HiFi Berry Pro+ HAT, Ropieee, case). FWIW, there several brand name products out there that sell for thousands that use RPi under the hood.
Thoms
Member
- Thread Author
- #28
Hi Mike,
I, too, love the Roon interface and even more the way it automatically recognizes and organizes my music.
I have ~5000 albums, mostly classical.
Tagging the music is a nightmare. Roon does it for me. No other software is capable of doing what Roon does. The others simply drag behind, far far behind.
If I may, how did you compare Roon to the Aurender?
Did you connect the Roon Server to the DAC? Or did you use a Roon EndPoint? If so which one?
The Aurender is indeed a lovely piece of kit.
I'll probably consider one.
Thoms
Member
- Thread Author
- #29
I wish it was that simple.
I like to tinker once in a while. Reminds me my youth.
And the Raspberry Pi ecosystem is a nice and cheap way to learn about software design. In my experience (and I did try), a Raspberry Pi does not outperform a well designed Roon Endpoint.
But it's fun!
One of my Pi boards : http://serra.se/pi.jpg
EDIT : out of curiosity, which brands using Raspberry Pi as their core boards are you referring to?
I wish it was that simple.
I like to tinker once in a while. Reminds me my youth.
And the Raspberry Pi ecosystem is a nice and cheap way to learn about software design. In my experience (and I did try), a Raspberry Pi does not outperform a well designed Roon Endpoint.
But it's fun!
One of my Pi boards : http://serra.se/pi.jpg
EDIT : out of curiosity, which brands using Raspberry Pi as their core boards are you referring to?
Bryston for one and they were fairly open about it. But not everyone will tell you what they have inside. There was a well known high end brand that once put the innards of an Oppo CD player inside their chasis and was selling it for several thousands more than the Oppo.
NekoAudio
New member
I believe peer-to-peer network is being used incorrectly, although I'm not entirely sure I understand the context it is being used in. Roon is a client-server architecture, not a peer-to-peer architecture. Also a peer-to-peer implementation by itself does not automatically equate to more network traffic than a client-server one.
Roon Client used to have some issues on my computer with resource usage, but that seems to have either been a bug or poor design that has since been fixed. Both Roon Client and Roon Core both seem to use a relatively small amount of resources now, at least when not using any of the potentially compute-intensive operations like DSP.
Roon Client used to have some issues on my computer with resource usage, but that seems to have either been a bug or poor design that has since been fixed. Both Roon Client and Roon Core both seem to use a relatively small amount of resources now, at least when not using any of the potentially compute-intensive operations like DSP.
Thoms
Member
- Thread Author
- #32
Indeed! The client software has a very small memory and computing footprint.
As for the Roon Core (the server), it very much depends on what it is doing.
Serving files to the Roon Endpoint utilizes very few resources.
But as soon as the Roon Core starts doing anything else related to the database, it accesses a lot to the memory and uses more the CPU, therefore more noise.
Compared to a lot of UPnP based Servers (Asset, MinimServer, etc.) Roon Core is simply a monster. But a lovely monster ;-)
And we should not connect the monster to a DAC.
First rule of Roon : "You will not connect the Core to your DAC" ;-)
Randy Myers
Well-known member
How exactly is a CPU usage adding noise? And, on my Core Server, with both Roon Core and HQPlayer running there is a max of maybe, maybe 35% CPU usage. Basically the CPU is twiddling its thumbs. Again I say, how exactly is using 35% of an 8-core CPU adding noise into the system. And, attaching the server direct to the DAC is actually less noise because you are not sending your digital signal through all the network wiring (ethernet or even worse WiFi), Router, Switches, etc. Having the music store internal on the server and traveling through a single cable to the DAC is definitely the cleanest way and least possible noise addition.
Roon core is not a monster... it basically makes the computer sit there and do almost nothing... HQPlayer is in fact a monster but it still does not tax current equipment.
Roon core is not a monster... it basically makes the computer sit there and do almost nothing... HQPlayer is in fact a monster but it still does not tax current equipment.
More powerful CPU creates more heat and making more noise.
This is a widely accepted fact.
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This is a widely accepted fact.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Randy Myers
Well-known member
I believe we have different views about what causes noise and what is a heavy CPU load, and that's fine
And that is cool...
Far too many people make the whole digital music thing far more complicated then it actually is. Some certainly are simply trying to get the best they can out of their system, however others I personally feel (and this is not in reference to you more so those who manufacture un-Godly expensive gear to perform fairly simple tasks) have ulterior motives. And unfortunately all of this confusion makes it very difficult for the average person who just wants to listen to music in a more simplistic manner, but tend to be quite timid with computer technology and digital music.
All I can tell you is that my digital system, playing all of my files through my DAC at 24.6 mhz (DSD512 with 48 khz base), sounds amazing sometimes even better than my analog, sometimes not.
Randy Myers
Well-known member
Within reason and depending on use. If being push hard certainly, but Roon is not pushing them hard... but then again if more powerful CPUs cause issues why does the SGM Extreme Music Server (consider by many as the pinnacle of music servers) use dual 10-core, 20 thread CPUs... in other words full 40 threads.... some of the most powerful CPUs available...
This is Aurender’s principle for best sound. Others need more power CPU’s for applications like Roon.
Until you’ve tried an Aurender N20 against your best home made server and really listen to how Roon sounds A/B’ing, you won’t know. On the flip side, TAS sounds amazing. So black the background and so natural. Both are tops.
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Randy Myers
Well-known member
send me an Aurender and I will be happy to do a complete and fair comparison 
.That is obviously not a fair comparison of course since the Aurender is many times more expensive. How would the Aurender compare to say a SGM Extreme?
Would love to, but none to spare, sorry. We use them all. We also don’t do remote loaners any more. Too many things got destroyed by customers and Fedex/UPS.
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