Question For The Sharks:

[NOLG4EVR]

The general consensus here seems to be to get a great pair of speakers and build your system around them. I'm not convinced this is the way to build a properly synergistic rig.

How is it possible to know if the speakers are great without matching them to the proper pre and amp in the first place. I believe a total plan must be in place right from the start in order to properly achieve your end result and goal.

First you must decide what you really want. Most start out with good intentions but wind up with a cobbled together mish mash of components that just don't belong together. They are then not satisfied and wonder why and keep buying and selling looking for the answer.

I believe you must have a game plan, choose components right from the start that are voiced to work together and create a synergy that each piece will compliment each other. Every link in the chain will make a difference and if thought out correctly from the start will not require regular changes in gear.

You might just be able to relax and enjoy music after all.

 

[BlueFox]

I will offer a third choice. Build your foundation, and then go with the gear.

By foundation I mean dedicated AC circuits for amps and source gear, along with power cords and power conditioners. For each piece of gear get a quality power cord, and use quality interconnect cables, along with quality speaker cables. Along with power and cables you need to address vibration control. This would be a solid rack and vibration control under all gear. Depending on your speakers, you could also have speaker plinths. At the least, spike the speakers.

Once your foundation is secure then you can be sure each piece of gear you either have, or will have, will be working at its peak. If you do not have a good foundation then your system is only performing at a sub-level.

I discovered this by accident. I upgraded power cords in my previous two channel system and was amazed at the improvement. This lead me onto a two year spree where all I did was upgrade cables, power, rack, and vibration control. I was just amazed at how much performance I extracted from my modest system. Once I started upgrading the gear I knew it was working at its best because I had built a solid foundation.

 

[NOLG4EVR]

Why would selecting speakers and building your system around them result in a higher chance of a non-synergistic rig?


Granted, no matter where one starts – it is easy to derail synergistically, but the thinking around speaker first is obvious next step, which is to find the amplifier best suited to driving the speaker. Many systems fail to perform to potential simply because of a poor amplifier to speaker match.


Further, speaker first also acknowledges the prime importance of how a speaker interfaces with listening environment. In order words our choice of speaker should typically take into account where it is to be used. In Asia (where I live) a there are two very common failings; first, the audiophile selects a speaker that is too big for the room and second, the audiophile selects an amplifier of insufficient power to drive the speaker. The result in both cases is lament and complete misery.








Very much agree, but the sad reality is many audiophiles don’t have a clue what they really want.

I agree with most of your points except the sonic signature of a good system is not necessarily created with just speakers.

Therefore if you start with speakers, without knowing what your amp and pre will bring to the table you are lost before you begin to travel.

I did not mean selecting speakers first would result in a higher chance of less synergy, just that speaker first did not make sense to me.

 

[JDLaudio]

The general consensus here seems to be to get a great pair of speakers and build your system around them. I'm not convinced this is the way to build a properly synergistic rig.

How is it possible to know if the speakers are great without matching them to the proper pre and amp in the first place. I believe a total plan must be in place right from the start in order to properly achieve your end result and goal.



Well he kind of gave us two options to choose from.......speakers first, or electronics. But to have a great sounding system, several factors must match up. Does he like ported boxes, sealed boxes, ribbons, panels, open baffle, full range, monitors (with or w/o subs ??), or multichannel set-up. So I think you must choose a type of speaker you want. Then you must demo it, to be sure it is compatible with your room and desires. Only then can you begin to choose the electronics. Example: If he decides on "difficult to drive" panel speakers.......then a high powered SS amp/integrated will most likely be the first consideration, as opposed to a low power SET amp.
So several factors need to be considered from the beginning. What is your style of listening ?? Large scale orchestrated (sp ?) music.......rock music.....jazz.....vocal, or all the above ? Do you prefer tubes or solid state (?)........as this would narrow your choice of speakers somewhat. Budget will also dominate ones initial buying decisions. These all must be determined first, before you can make a plan.
Of course proper electrical service, racks, IC's, power cords, etc. would be great from the start as well. But most budgets do not allow for all of this at once. As we get more educated about how audio systems work, we realize synergy among all of the components matters most. Sometimes your room can have more effect on sound quality than the best laid plans and equipment. I've seen way too many friends through the years spend money on higher priced equipment, and never achieve better sound........because of room problems and mis-matched equipment.
Occasionally I will see an honorable dealer sell a customer a set of Maggie 1.7's.......an integrated amp........and a good quality cd player/or turntable, and make him a happy customer for many years (just one of the many great speakers that can work well). But too many dealers want to keep a customer on the constant high-end upgrade path, when a properly designed mid-priced system would have been best. I am sure every seasoned audiophile here on AS could describe a few combinations that really work well together. Hopefully the less experienced folks will follow some of this advice, and seek these sorts of demos for their rooms. Don't buy blindly......have a plan......and try it out at home. Then write the check.


Jerry-

 

[JDLaudio]

By the way, I came to the above conclusions......because I too made all the wrong decisions for many years. If I could have back all the money that I have spent in the last ten years on gear, I could be enjoying a Magico Ultimate lll system right now. I have learned a lot of hard lessons, and paid dearly. So I was never a rocket scientist, when it came to audio.

 

[MDP]

Chris, I have always believed that you find a speaker you love, and then put together the power components. I have found that the speakers never lose their identity, no matter what electronics you put with them. So buying a speaker that you really love is of the utmost importance.

Sources are of equal importance, as they say, garbage in garbage out. BUT, we are talking about what comes first here.

Electronics and cables can flavor a speaker, but nothing can make a speaker sound different than it is, so you have to love it from the start.

 

[the professor]

I'm usually a source first guy. And I do believe a great source will work in ANY system. Whether it's a big eltrostatic or bookshelves or high efficiency SET .......

However, to build a system the speakers need to come first because they interact with your room, life style, WAF, type of music etc.

Then I suggest source first, preamp second then amps. IMO there are quite a few great amps that don't break the bank. Parasound, music fidelity, Job, Cary, line magnetic. These all with a great source / preamp will sound fantastic w speakers that move you.

To me preamps lag behind in getting a great preamp for cheap.

 

[MusicDirector]

We forgot one important component: Room acoustics! That's the game changer. The sound of everything be it speakers, electronics and what have you is greatly effected by the room as everyone here knows. You can hear a great set of speakers in the shop and get them in your home and have them sound like crap depending on the room.

So my updated formula would be Speakers followed by Room treatment if needed (this covers little things to DIY to full blown treatment), then electronics. That's just my logic though. Go with what works for you.

 

[MusicDirector]

Chris, I have always believed that you find a speaker you love, and then put together the power components. I have found that the speakers never lose their identity, no matter what electronics you put with them. So buying a speaker that you really love is of the utmost importance.

Sources are of equal importance, as they say, garbage in garbage out. BUT, we are talking about what comes first here.

Electronics and cables can flavor a speaker, but nothing can make a speaker sound different than it is, so you have to love it from the start.

Well stated Mark. +1

 

[octadyndude]

Chris, I have always believed that you find a speaker you love, and then put together the power components. I have found that the speakers never lose their identity, no matter what electronics you put with them. So buying a speaker that you really love is of the utmost importance.

Sources are of equal importance, as they say, garbage in garbage out. BUT, we are talking about what comes first here.

Electronics and cables can flavor a speaker, but nothing can make a speaker sound different than it is, so you have to love it from the start.

+1 I started with a Yamaha CDX1030 source - Denon PMA700 IA with Mission/Cyrus 782 speakers. As the Denon started to have problems I went for a Bryston B100 IA. To my ears it was just a 1/2 hair better. I figured GIGO so I went for the source next - Meridian G08. Again the sound got just a hair better. Tried some cables next. Things were getting better but only at a snails pace. Finally I started speaker shopping. Yep I hauled my 782's to several dealers because that was my reference that I knew. There were plenty of speakers I thought sounded better until I placed them side by side. It wasn't until I heard the SF Cremora M auditor that I found the speaker for me. But it was double my budget. Since I had to save for quite a while I kept looking. Then I met Tyler on line through A'Gon. Being so close I told him I was looking for speakers and loved the SF. He said come on over and listen to Dynaudio. He fired up the C1's with my 782's along side of them. I was floored. Problem was they were the same as the SF's in price. But I knew that was the speaker. He offered to demo the S1.4's and S25's (closer to my budget). I turned him down because I wasn't going to compromise. As I was leaving he mentioned 'B' stock. Told him if the price was right I'd do it. A couple of weeks later he had a great price. Turned out Mick got me 'A' stock at 'B' stock price. I said I'll take them. Once he got them for me he came to my home with his demo C1's to make sure they sounded right in my room. After the speakers were broken in I had a problem with the Meridian and had to send it in for repair. Put the Yamaha back in. Holy cr@p. How could I not hear those differences before. Then I thought it must be the speakers. Tyler kept telling me things could sound even better if I replaced the Bryston. But remembering the difference between the Denon and Bryston I kept saying NO. One day I started thinking it was time to replace the Bryston (always had a very low level hum coming through the speakers). I could cure it by lifting the ground on either the Meridian or Bryston but wasn't keen on that. That's when Tyler brought over the Octave V70SE. I never realized how dry sounding the Bryston was and how much more control the Octave had. I was floored again and decided if I wanted to change the sound up a bit I could roll some glass.

Because of that experience I vote for speakers first.

 

[CDLehner]

Time for me to weigh-in, with feedback here. Thanks guys...for your passion and your posts!

I can't say it's helped much...but as usual, it's allowed me to bring my own thoughts, into focus a bit more (my wife, used to crucify me for this: she'd say "why do you ask my opinion, when you're just going to do what you want in the end". Well, of course...we're ALL going to do, what we want in the end. But that doesn't mean, the opinions and advice of others; goes unnoticed or unused. By accepting or even rejecting, the thoughts of others; it allows you to hone-in, on what your own desires really are. Did I mention, that we are currently separated )

I think the reason, this is such a tough decision for me; has less to do with speakers-first/gear-first...but as some have suggested, getting to bottom of what I'm really looking for at the end ("destination"). Again...I've tried a lot of gear; and I can honestly say, I've been hard-pressed to dislike much of it.

Let's take amps for example: I like 500watt digital (some of them anyway), I like 5watt tube-amps. I really like class-A; but I worry, as my "last amp"...do they have enough juice, for a variety of speakers. Ah...now we're getting somewhere. If I really like class-A...and am going to go with like a First Watt, or Pass (or even Belles SA-30); I know I've got to stick to, and find a pair of fairly high-efficiency speakers I can live with (DeVore Orangs, leap to mind!). Also...as mentioned elsewhere; I can see an ARC Ref75, as a destination amp as well...and it should be able to drive more speakers, should I find the need/desire to go more "inefficient".

And see...here's what the real poll needed to be: do you follow your head :scholar: or follow your heart? :heart:

I've tried all the amps: from (class-)A to (class-)T, lol. I can make a case, for just about all of them (with traditional A/B, actually being the least interesting IMO). Class-D/T...gives you the muscle to drive anything; but IMO, loses some "musicality" as a trade-off. Class A, is as sweet as SS gets; but can appear "soft", when you need to Rock-out. Tubes do allow you, to achieve "multiple-personalities" and some balance (and I guess, that's actually the best argument for A/B; and why it's still probably king, by a long-shot. It is the best all-arounder). But tubes are high-maintenance; not that it's a bad thing...it will give, even a "destination" guy...something to futz with

And...what does this all, really come down to; why do we have the kit in the first place: what kind of music do you listen to most? I've mostly dabbled, with speakers from 3 brands...in my Main rig anyway. Dynaudio, Harbeth, PMC. If you're a 'phile, with a lean toward Rock; you're as likely, to blast the Zep and Floyd...as Diana Krall. I'd go with Dyns. If you're an Acoustic, Jazz kinda 'phile; I think you'd be hard-pressed, to do better than Harbeth (and yes...Leben with Harbeth, is a known, legendary pairing; and I know...if I wanted to just chuck the hobby, of indulging in the gear. If I were burning my audiophile card, and just going to sit in a chair and listen to music; I'd think Luxman and Harbeth would suit me just fine as well). PMC...well, it does a little of both well; which might make it a best all-around choice. And, it is a great speaker IMO; but...another way of saying you do a little of everything pretty well...is to say, you don't do ANYTHING great. For the record...I had the same "problem", with C-J kit. It really does "just sound right". But with such balance...there's also nothing that wows you.

My musical tastes, run a w i d e gamut; from intentionally lo-fi Indie stuff...to top-notch DSD. And I refuse to listen, based on what sounds best; as that is the ultimate example, of the tail waging the dog that I can think of!

Still thinking (and most of this :upthis: were my thoughts, spilling-out through my fingers...lol)...still (soul-)searching. But I think for me...gear will come first. Not because, I don't agree with the sentiment...that speakers are most important; they are! But probably just because...I feel more honed-in, on gear choices (as I've said above...FW, Pass, ARC, or Belles; that's what passes, for "honed-in" in my book...lol); and I might still have some speaker choices to explore...depending on what kit I go with (like DeVore Orangs, or SFs; or maybe I should just buy Joe's 40.1s, and call it a day! )

 

[Kt77]

I will offer a third choice. Build your foundation, and then go with the gear.

By foundation I mean dedicated AC circuits for amps and source gear, along with power cords and power conditioners. For each piece of gear get a quality power cord, and use quality interconnect cables, along with quality speaker cables. Along with power and cables you need to address vibration control. This would be a solid rack and vibration control under all gear. Depending on your speakers, you could also have speaker plinths. At the least, spike the speakers.

Once your foundation is secure then you can be sure each piece of gear you either have, or will have, will be working at its peak. If you do not have a good foundation then your system is only performing at a sub-level.

I discovered this by accident. I upgraded power cords in my previous two channel system and was amazed at the improvement. This lead me onto a two year spree where all I did was upgrade cables, power, rack, and vibration control. I was just amazed at how much performance I extracted from my modest system. Once I started upgrading the gear I knew it was working at its best because I had built a solid foundation.

H/ear Here Bud,

Im a firm believer of the Nordost - Roy Gregory School Of Thought, on the Foundation importance rule as well, and have followed it since coming across it mentioned as far back as 2000 in an issue of Hi-Fi +, and found it valid to this day! all to often we buy, then sell components within months of purchases - but never take into account, have we heard them at their best?, here I'm talking clean/quiet AC power feeding the system - are we really hearing the electronics is they aren't receiving the cleanest - quietest power avaliable?, not taking into account that they're vibrating/dancing along to the beat of what's passed through them, because of the lack of proper isolation devices/platforms/racks and so on.

Either way we wish to look at it!, and given speaker should first and foremost ideally fit perfectly into the room it's intended to by heard in ( as Kiwi, pointed out, all to often men crave the biggest baddest speakers on the planet, yet have these 8' tall monsters in a room that's only 8' 8" tall itself ) there's nothing worse then having to place these type of speakers in a room where they're overpowering it, and have a listener sitting say 3' away from the front baffle, but as it should be known!, any properly sized speaker will bring about a desire to listen for years and years to come - the speaker will let you know what sort of power is needed, ( does it say use with 10watts minimum to 50 watts maximium on its rear or in the manual? ) as well as which type it prefers ( solid state or tube ) - same with an amp, case in point you can purchase a Shindo or Leben and love either to death, but in reality both limit your choice of speakers whether one wants to except the facts or not, so does it come down to the end uses knowing that a very decent sound can be had with amps rated between 15 - 38 watts per channel?, or are your speakers forcing you to look at amps rated at over 180 - 200 watts per side?, which to my ears are half as delicate or musical, but the speaker is telling you what it wants, is that the same as your needs?, or that of your room?.

In the end, it comes full circle to are you even hearing your system or components at their best, if you aren't feeding them properly to begin with?, likely not.

You guys here are very knowledgable in how each of you've gone about building some of the nicest looking - most costly systems I've ever seen, but in hindsight is it about their cost?, or their greater sense of purity or fidelity that drove your final decision to pursue them?.

A well matched modest system is very capable of having a better sense of emotional involvement drawn from it, then mere components thrown together based upon ratings or class levels, without understanding how each synergizes with the other around it - it's a team effort after all, but I love the fact, that I'm learning and re-learning several important factors as they relate to our system from all of you, and it's an honor being amongst so many that are willing to share their vast knowledge it brings a tear to my eye, thanks to each and everyone of you for making this feel like home.

Best regards to each of you,
scar

 

[Kt77]

Time for me to weigh-in, with feedback here. Thanks guys...for your passion and your posts!

I can't say it's helped much...but as usual, it's allowed me to bring my own thoughts, into focus a bit more (my wife, used to crucify me for this: she'd say "why do you ask my opinion, when you're just going to do what you want in the end". Well, of course...we're ALL going to do, what we want in the end. But that doesn't mean, the opinions and advice of others; goes unnoticed or unused. By accepting or even rejecting, the thoughts of others; it allows you to hone-in, on what your own desires really are. Did I mention, that we are currently separated )

I think the reason, this is such a tough decision for me; has less to do with speakers-first/gear-first...but as some have suggested, getting to bottom of what I'm really looking for at the end ("destination"). Again...I've tried a lot of gear; and I can honestly say, I've been hard-pressed to dislike much of it.

Let's take amps for example: I like 500watt digital (some of them anyway), I like 5watt tube-amps. I really like class-A; but I worry, as my "last amp"...do they have enough juice, for a variety of speakers. Ah...now we're getting somewhere. If I really like class-A...and am going to go with like a First Watt, or Pass (or even Belles SA-30); I know I've got to stick to, and find a pair of fairly high-efficiency speakers I can live with (DeVore Orangs, leap to mind!). Also...as mentioned elsewhere; I can see an ARC Ref75, as a destination amp as well...and it should be able to drive more speakers, should I find the need/desire to go more "inefficient".

And see...here's what the real poll needed to be: do you follow your head :scholar: or follow your heart? :heart:

I've tried all the amps: from (class-)A to (class-)T, lol. I can make a case, for just about all of them (with traditional A/B, actually being the least interesting IMO). Class-D/T...gives you the muscle to drive anything; but IMO, loses some "musicality" as a trade-off. Class A, is as sweet as SS gets; but can appear "soft", when you need to Rock-out. Tubes do allow you, to achieve "multiple-personalities" and some balance (and I guess, that's actually the best argument for A/B; and why it's still probably king, by a long-shot. It is the best all-arounder). But tubes are high-maintenance; not that it's a bad thing...it will give, even a "destination" guy...something to futz with

And...what does this all, really come down to; why do we have the kit in the first place: what kind of music do you listen to most? I've mostly dabbled, with speakers from 3 brands...in my Main rig anyway. Dynaudio, Harbeth, PMC. If you're a 'phile, with a lean toward Rock; you're as likely, to blast the Zep and Floyd...as Diana Krall. I'd go with Dyns. If you're an Acoustic, Jazz kinda 'phile; I think you'd be hard-pressed, to do better than Harbeth (and yes...Leben with Harbeth, is a known, legendary pairing; and I know...if I wanted to just chuck the hobby, of indulging in the gear. If I were burning my audiophile card, and just going to sit in a chair and listen to music; I'd think Luxman and Harbeth would suit me just fine as well). PMC...well, it does a little of both well; which might make it a best all-around choice. And, it is a great speaker IMO; but...another way of saying you do a little of everything pretty well...is to say, you don't do ANYTHING great. For the record...I had the same "problem", with C-J kit. It really does "just sound right". But with such balance...there's also nothing that wows you.

My musical tastes, run a w i d e gamut; from intentionally lo-fi Indie stuff...to top-notch DSD. And I refuse to listen, based on what sounds best; as that is the ultimate example, of the tail waging the dog that I can think of!

Still thinking (and most of this :upthis: were my thoughts, spilling-out through my fingers...lol)...still (soul-)searching. But I think for me...gear will come first. Not because, I don't agree with the sentiment...that speakers are most important; they are! But probably just because...I feel more honed-in, on gear choices (as I've said above...FW, Pass, ARC, or Belles; that's what passes, for "honed-in" in my book...lol); and I might still have some speaker choices to explore...depending on what kit I go with (like DeVore Orangs, or SFs; or maybe I should just buy Joe's 40.1s, and call it a day! )

Chris,

First off, I'm sorry to hear about your separation, as it seems commitments aren't as solid as they once were, coming from someone whom is about to celebrate our 38th wedding anniversary on December 15th.

But back to the subject at hand, there are any right or wrong methods of obtaining what
" you want ", it's just knowing what you can live with long term ( yes, I read between the lines on your statement about really liking Class A amps, yet wonder if they'd be capable of driving something else down the road? ) that in itself, is the wrong way to look at it............., once you've found " your sound " in both electronics and speakers as a ideal tandem, you ride them out until something is broken!, not just continue seeking out new adventures simply for the sake of it - " if a system is clicking!, it's clicking, leave she be ".


As the reality of it is, one can change out one component, and have a wonderful sound just fall apart, merely because of curiousity which should be the furthest thing from your/ones mind if you're content with the musicality of your system to begin with?, granted there will always be different sounding components and speakers for a great deal more, which many of us might crave - hell............., I'm a Mini-Monitor lover, yet had my world fall apart upon hearing a pair of Magico S1s, and can't get them out of my mind, even knowing that if I pursued a pair!, I know I couldn't afford the amp they deserved at the same time, so would've to settle then for something that's capable of driving them, even if that meant using a cheap amp from the likes of NAD or NuForce in the interim, so be it............, because I heard them driven with a Class A 30 watt - Accuphase E - 600, and though lowly rated power wise, it filled a very large demo room over at David Michael Audio here in Michigan with ease, so it's not a matter of power, in so much as reality, as the Capital commercial ask............, what's in your wallet?.

David Michael and Jeff ( his co-owner/manager ) see $5.000 products as entry level, whereas I on the other hand - see $5.000 as my maximum budget on any given piece from the Source, and Integrated - Speakers ( my references here being a pair of Devore Gibbon 3XLs or Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor Ms with stands, bought second hand if need be, to keep my price guide intact ), at which point, for me at least - it's about maximizing what's there, with tweaks and adding to the " Foundation School of Thought " as mentioned earlier.

We've to realize one very important factor, not matter the cost of any of this stuff!, it all has faults - nothing's prefect, it's merely a matter of which compromises each of us can live with compared to others?, if something moves me emotionally in a sense it makes me respond to joyful/sad moments in the recordings, then it has done its job, if if makes me want to dance!, cry!, laugh!, analysis the meaning behind each and every note or passage or any given artist technique!, then it has done its job, and has served its purpose all best I'd want.


Enlightenment - starts within, it's just a matter of excepting the fact that some of us can reach a point where enough is enough - while others find themselves for ever in search of the Abso!ute illusion of betterment just for the sake of differences, not musicality, it's in our heads, if your system moves you!, then why the constant need to alter one single thing?, I'd ask of thee.

Logic, as Mr. Spock would say, is my motive.

Peace,
scar

 

[sharkmouth]

 

[ozarktom]

As a former audio dealer, build a big sound room with high 12-15 foot ceilings. That makes the biggest difference that I have ever heard.

But if that is impossible, go with speakers that matches your current sound room. If they don't match, the most expensive electronics will never improve the SQ.

 

[CPP]

As a former audio dealer, build a big sound room with high 12-15 foot ceilings. That makes the biggest difference that I have ever heard.

But if that is impossible, go with speakers that matches your current sound room. If they don't match, the most expensive electronics will never improve the SQ.

A person could say, 'With that big sound room, comes big responsibilities' :scholar:

When we moved, we moved out of a home that had, a (very nice) dedicated HT room and a man cave for 2 channel to a home in Fla where the image of WIDE OPEN SPACES comes into being, that sound room can cover openly connected rooms or as they say 'open floor plans' that makes it extremely difficult not to mention keep the wife happy trying to add some sort of audio system. . Like this example of our "great room. Sure I could throw large speakers and power at it, but the wife would own the home outright if I did that LOL.

 

[still-one]

You need to get a handle on your speakers then start swapping out pre-amps, sources or cables to get the most out them or get them closer to what you are looking for.