Power - what do you do?

Odyssey said:


This looks like an informative "commercial" .

I'm just starting to get my arms around this.
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Le Roy,

Lots of people love the regenerators. IMO they are indeed good at reconstructing the incoming power but they are not the best solution for the high instantaneous current required by amplifiers. I see the three "holy grails" of a properly designed electrical foundations follows:

1) Block the system from the outside without limiting instantaneous current or operating current.
2) Star ground the system to avoid ground loops caused by electrical potential deltas at each component's ground without limiting either instantaneous current or operating current to each component.
3) Isolate each component from the significant other components in the system without limiting instantaneous current or operating current.

I believe the best overall soulution for item (1) is to size an isolation transformer as follows: Define the rated current and the maximum instantaneous current for your entire system. Choose a SOTA isolation transformer sized were the transformer rating less the systems rated current is equal to or greater than your systems maximum instantaneous current. A good rule of thumb for instantaneous current (if not available) is 3 to 4 times rated current.

I believe Torus (Piltron) make the best isolation transformer available. If you could size a regenerator large enough to achieve a reserve of this magnitude I think they would be fine but IMO it makes little sense to put a $5000 amp with limited output in front of a $50,000 amp that is capable of extreme speed (slew rate) and dynamics which can only be achieved through available instantaneous current.

Using regenerators for your front end is another matter, but you still need to clean up the incoming power for your amps so why not use a properly sized isolation transformer for your entire system then the outside noise is blocked and your amps have access to massive current. At this point, star grounding (item 2) and component isolation (item 3) are the only remaining objectives and I think there are less obtrusive ways to isolate components than regeneration.
 
Thanks Paul. Enlightening. Is this the product you are speaking of:







That's one massive transformer! Do you have an electrician in Chicago that knows how to install this properly? Some electricians I've talk to about special requests for accommodations for high end audio look at me like I'm nuts.
 
In the past I sold many Valhalla powercables to clients who owned a PS Audio Powerplant. But they had one thing in common; They all sold their conditioner after time. When I asked them why they sold it, I often got the answer that they were not convinced. These powerplants work a 8 bit precision. This creates a kind of sound what is not very natural.

A few months ago I had a shootout at a client between the Powersource+ ( which I own and had with me) against a Shunyata Hydra AV another shop brought in:

http://www.kempelektroniks.nl/Files...er_source_en_plus__eng__logo_scherpe_foto.pdf

The Powersource did win the shootout with ease. What were the differences?

- The powersource had a lot more dynamics and control
- The overal sound was more natural ( the Hydra Av sounds a little harsh with a piano for example) and had more texture.
- Blacklevel was a lot better, much better individual focus of instruments and voices.
- In the beginning the Hydra had more resolution, but at the end of the test the Kemp also did win in this part.
- The stage was deeper and wider with the powersource.

I sold many of these for many years. All clients still use it, this is the opposite of the PS Audio powerplant owners who sold them often.
 
I do consulting in sound&vision cause of the freedom I have. I can get many stuff for good prices. It depends what is the best in quality. That is how I work. Because the thing I dislike most is that in my opinion far over 90% of all audio equipment is not worth the money. I want people to get a much higher level in quality than most shops give. I don't want to be independent of any brand. Ofcourse you work with some brands all the time. I sell 3 dimensional sound, and I use properties of tools togheter to create 3 dimensional sound.
 
I also use a Torus power conditioner. I really like the approach they use. The specialize in current delivery which means unlike many of the competitors they work well with Amps and not just low current equipment. It's also a very simple design which appeals to the engineer in me.

TOTloResFront1.png


http://canadahifi.com/torus-power-tot-max-15a-power-conditioner/
 
Mike, while this thread has not been active for a while, I am still interested in the direction that you have gone to solve your A/C noise issue.
Could you please update this along with the trials and errors that you experienced? Thanks
 
jadedavid said:
Mike, while this thread has not been active for a while, I am still interested in the direction that you have gone to solve your A/C noise issue.
Could you please update this along with the trials and errors that you experienced? Thanks
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I installed 8 dedicated 20amp circuits from a separate panel box with a proper ground. I then installed 8 MIT Z-Duplex outlets (for true noise flirtation). Using the Entec noise analyzer, this reduced noise by about 80%. Then, I installed two APC S20's on top of that. This reduced line noise by 99.99%.

Very happy with this!!
 
That is very impressive, thanks for sharing Mike. I need to get one of those Entec noise analyzers.....
 
Thanks, you're still the king. Though I fear what a simple $40 investment may ultimately cost me.
 
Just noticed this thread. I've been using a Furman IT-Reference (the original model) since fall of 2004 and later added a Furman SPR-20i to provide regulation due to some severe power fluctuations I had in my apartment building a number of years ago.

I'll be moving to the Torus/Bryston solution in the future because I would like to get something that doesn't create a lot of heat which I find the IT-Reference does plus the IT-Reference has always buzzed. By times the IT-Reference runs very warm to the touch, borderline hot and it's my understanding communicating with Torus that their units don't run hot and have no noticeable buzz.

I'll probably end up getting a BIT-20 for my amps and subs and perhaps a BIT-15AVR for the other electronics. Would prefer a BIT-15AVR2 but the there is no such model. Torus itself does have a 15PlusAVR2 but it's my understanding it's rather close in price to the 20AVR2 so it would probably make more sense to go up to the 20 and get the BIT-20AVR2 but having 20 amps for just a number of 15A type devices would be unnecessary.
 
Rod#S said:
Just noticed this thread. I've been using a Furman IT-Reference (the original model) since fall of 2004 and later added a Furman SPR-20i to provide regulation due to some severe power fluctuations I had in my apartment building a number of years ago.

I'll be moving to the Torus/Bryston solution in the future because I would like to get something that doesn't create a lot of heat which I find the IT-Reference does plus the IT-Reference has always buzzed. By times the IT-Reference runs very warm to the touch, borderline hot and it's my understanding communicating with Torus that their units don't run hot and have no noticeable buzz.

I'll probably end up getting a BIT-20 for my amps and subs and perhaps a BIT-15AVR for the other electronics. Would prefer a BIT-15AVR2 but the there is no such model. Torus itself does have a 15PlusAVR2 but it's my understanding it's rather close in price to the 20AVR2 so it would probably make more sense to go up to the 20 and get the BIT-20AVR2 but having 20 amps for just a number of 15A type devices would be unnecessary.
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i would try to use one identical 20 amp unit for each of your amps. The amp rating determines instantaneous current, transient response and headroom. Those Brystons are big amps. Torus says go 3 to 5 times the amps rated current draw. Plug the sources, pre, etc. into the remaining available receptacles as available to keep each units load as equal as possible. Use something like a Furutech Flux 50 if you get inter component contamination. At least if you have two identical units you could try it my way and your way to see which your prefer. Just a thought......
 
Thanks

Certainly more pricey than what I was thinking but what you say does make sense. In theory then due to spreading the load over the 2 units as equal as possible I would have to get two 20AVR2 (or 20AVR) vs two standard 20 units to get the benefit of regulation for all the regular electronics (as they would be spit across units in your scenario) if I ever found myself in a situation again where it was needed but the price goes up even more as the AVR units are noticeably more than the standard models.

The one catch is, I wouldn't be able to connect each 20 to a separate circuit. All the receptacles along the front wall where I have all but my two 7B-SST2s plugged in (they are at the back of the room) are on the same circuit. So would that basically eliminate any benefit of what you suggest? In order to get the front equipment to another circuit would require an exceptionally long power cord.

Unfortunately I can't do any upgrades on the electrical panel and wiring. I live in an apartment building so that's out of the picture.

The best I might be able to get away with in the form up electrical upgrades would be to see if I could get permission to replace the receptacles with some high end ones but that's obviously no substitute to upgrading to say 20 amps and having some dedicated lines or at the very least being able to get dedicated 15 amps to a couple of my front wall receptacles.
 
Rod#S said:
Thanks

Certainly more pricey than what I was thinking but what you say does make sense. In theory then due to spreading the load over the 2 units as equal as possible I would have to get two 20AVR2 (or 20AVR) vs two standard 20 units to get the benefit of regulation for all the regular electronics (as they would be spit across units in your scenario) if I ever found myself in a situation again where it was needed but the price goes up even more as the AVR units are noticeably more than the standard models.

The one catch is, I wouldn't be able to connect each 20 to a separate circuit. All the receptacles along the front wall where I have all but my two 7B-SST2s plugged in (they are at the back of the room) are on the same circuit. So would that basically eliminate any benefit of what you suggest? In order to get the front equipment to another circuit would require an exceptionally long power cord.

Unfortunately I can't do any upgrades on the electrical panel and wiring. I live in an apartment building so that's out of the picture.

The best I might be able to get away with in the form up electrical upgrades would be to see if I could get permission to replace the receptacles with some high end ones but that's obviously no substitute to upgrading to say 20 amps and having some dedicated lines or at the very least being able to get dedicated 15 amps to a couple of my front wall receptacles.
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Well your configuration creates challenges. Are you even sure the oultet on the side wall you plan to use for the sources isn't on the circuit on the front wall? In apartments it often is.

As far as the bold above, it is the opposite that is true. While having separate circuits will be best for total available current they can be a problem with ground loops if the circuit isn't designed to have the same electrical potential at each ground. This is tricky*.

On the other, hand the Torus is designed to mitigate this problem through its huge reserve of instantaneous current in the form of its stored capacitance. Think of it like water flow. You have a single supply hose into the two Torus's but they represent two big tanks that feeds the equipment. A big transient can come along and require a huge gush of water flow at once. The hose would be exhauted; but the tank can pore that flow into the amps then in the milliseconds after this the small hose can refill the tank during a time where the amps need less current for regular passages in the music.

Can you get your sources up to the front to run with the amps? Maybe buy one AVR20 now and the second as your budget permits. This would get you voltage regulation, stay in your budget, clean your power, improve your instantaneous current and give you a long term solution for when you have two circuits in your next pad. In the short term you would sacrifice a bit of headroom over one for each amp but I think it would perform very closely to having one unit for two amps and one for sources as you originally proposed. The sources just aren't that hungry.



*(I use a Furutech low gage star grounding wire harness to connect the ground of all five of my 20 amp circuits directly to a 1inch solid copper ground rod into an 8 foot by 12 inch hole filled with 500 lbs of Harger Ultrafill Ground enhancing material which is two feet behind my listening wall.)
 
Thanks

Yeah I have confirmed the outlets at the back of the room are on a separate circuit than the ones at the front, the service panel had a diagram of what breaker feds each outlet in the apartment. The two outlets I use for my 7's at the back of the room, they are on opposite sides of the room from each other are actually on separate circuits from each other.

I thought about flipping things around to gain access to the separate circuits at the back for my front line gear but logistically it just doesn't work as the room doesn't lend itself well to doing that.

My sources are all ready up front with the 28's, so no issues there. Most of my gear plugs into my IT-Reference. I use the SPR-20i as sort of an overflow unit to take the less expensive items I have like the 3 gaining consoles, HDMI switch, Ethernet switch and DVR and because I ran out of outlets on the IT-Reference the SPR-20i also sees the two Servo 15a subs plugged into it. So literally the only items I don' have plugged into one or the other Furman are the two 7's at the back of the room. They were very recent purchases and I just plug them straight into the wall for now.
 
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