Power, Network, Connection, Which one matters the most to you?

preston8452

preston8452

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Hi guys,

When it comes to sound quality, I've realized there're freaking many factors could affect it, some say the DAC is the paramount thing to be taken care of; some say the speakers are the real crucial part, given that you hear all the sounds from them, there's no certain right or wrong here I'd say, after all, " Sound Quality " is absolutely subjective...

I'd like to know which section would you invest more? cuz I read that some power cables are more expensive than speakers, I was pretty impressed by that though, I'm sure the know-how must be real high-class, or some people even rearrange the wire management in the households, or even spend tons of money on router or network switch!

For me, I might invest more on the " Power " part though, I mean, let's face it, all electronic gears require power signals, not just audio system, it's like bloodstream to them, so if the power source is stable & strong enough, I imagine that the high-end audio gears would have better performance(? that's why people use external linear power supply rather than a simple power adaptor hahaha.

Share your insights or your experiences below, I'd be grateful to learn, or telling me what you're looking for to upgrade your system is cool too.

Best,
 
I think you kind of answered your own questions. End of the day all of the things involved in reproducing the sound need attention, but there needs to be a balance of investment. Don’t spend 10k on an amp and 1k on speakers, or vice verse. Of course, when budget is limited there may be some “leapfrogging”, and you buy one component that outclasses the others, intending for others to catch up. It’s probably closest to what I’ve done over the years; sometimes successfully sometimes not. My experience is there’s some art to integrating components you know will achieve a balance that accommodates your tastes, some research to find products that outperform their price, and that just takes time and experimentation.

I do think you’re onto something in regards power. I’ve increasingly been seeing more focus on this area. I’ve heard - including on here and at the Florida show this week - more and more, people who’s opinion I have reason to trust - to “get the power sorted”. For instance when I asked the Shunyata rep which to upgrade - various cables etc - he almost immediately said, invest in getting the best power you can, first. He easily could have said, “buy our interconnects or ethernet” or whatever, but without hesitating he more or less said, however you do it, focus on cleaning up your power at every point in your system. Interesting.
 
Power is the foundation of a stereo. Build a good, solid foundation and any piece of gear will work at its best. Of course, some gear is better than other gear, but that's a different story.
 
+1 on Power. However, if you are streaming the effect on network optimization is incredible.
 
I emphasize the source, if any detail/information is not extracted from the source nothing you add downstream will allow you to hear that lost detail. Your speakers are important but what good are $50k speakers if the system can't deliver to them a good signal? And, if you have the best you can do from your source, you have to maintain that signal until it reaches your speakers. So the system should be balanced in quality level within reason throughout.

Treating your room and set up is another critical area to address.

I personally found cables to improve my system's performance. Power conditioning is something that really requires experimenting with, I've had good luck then there were products that got returned. I do feel at some point you could over spend on cables if not careful, I wouldn't spend $10k for speaker cables on $10k speakers, to get aratio of price to performance would also require some experimenting.

And, just when you think you have it, then try some tweaks. Vibration control is amazing. I see grounding becoming another hot area.

It's good to get some feedback or guidance but you will find honestly you have to try for yourself to see what works for you and the gear you have at the time. I'm sure at some point in this thred you will see what I mean as the differing opinions begin to fly.
 
I think the reality is you can work in either direction. Chains and weakest links and all that stuff. Speakers that out-perform the electronics or the other way around, something in the chain will always be the limiter, until it's something else.

I think your suggestion that experimenting (researching, trialing, swapping, trading up) then tweaking the smaller stuff is as close to correct as you can get for those of us with mortal budgets (and maybe even those with immortal budgets).
 
preston8452 said:
Hi guys,

When it comes to sound quality, I've realized there're freaking many factors could affect it, some say the DAC is the paramount thing to be taken care of; some say the speakers are the real crucial part, given that you hear all the sounds from them, there's no certain right or wrong here I'd say, after all, " Sound Quality " is absolutely subjective...

I'd like to know which section would you invest more? cuz I read that some power cables are more expensive than speakers, I was pretty impressed by that though, I'm sure the know-how must be real high-class, or some people even rearrange the wire management in the households, or even spend tons of money on router or network switch!

For me, I might invest more on the " Power " part though, I mean, let's face it, all electronic gears require power signals, not just audio system, it's like bloodstream to them, so if the power source is stable & strong enough, I imagine that the high-end audio gears would have better performance(? that's why people use external linear power supply rather than a simple power adaptor hahaha.

Share your insights or your experiences below, I'd be grateful to learn, or telling me what you're looking for to upgrade your system is cool too.

Best,
Click to expand...

Seems like you're giving your endeavor some pretty good thought. Good for you... and us. :) And it's good to see you lean so quickly toward the electrical path.

But I think BlueFox said it best. In fact, you could take BlueFox' words and probably multiply them by... well, actually I'll bet nobody really knows because as with most things there's always room for one more improvement, right?

I'm pretty confident I can give most anybody a run for their money in the way of addressing the uncleansed electricity coming in from the street. I realize some start at the pole but my efforts start at the service panel and end at the speaker. I've even got the double-cryo'ed Romex wire to prove it.

Anyway, roughly 65% of my entire system's retail cost is dedicated solely to electrical mgmt. I can't say for certain that I'm on the right, best, and/or most efficient path but my hope is to one day reach 85%.

In fact, your thread got me thinking so I'd like ask others (and you) a question. Most of us are aware that some can be pretty committed to various forms of vibration management and of course there are those who give it a token effort and are satisfied with the results. But if at least some forms of vibration mgmt truely improve a playback system's level of musicality, what do you suppose is actually being improved upon to generate a more musical presentation?

That's the question. I mean, everythng vibrates anyway, right? And our listening rooms all have the potential of sounding / feeling like an earthquake's epicenter. Light or powerful, that's the speaker's sole purpose for existing - to generate mechanical vibrations. I mean we are talkin' some pretty serious vibration-rich environments. Not to mention it's ever present and generated by various sources too.
 
Before I can answer the initial question I have to make some basic assumptions. Assuming that we all provide normal relatively stable power to our set-up on a line(s) that is not shared with other particularly noisy devices, our systems should function well but not optimum. If that is the case then the most important choice you make is a speaker that works well in your listening room. Working well means any limitations in your room due to size, height, shape, seating position, reflections, flooring choices, etc. are somewhat mitigated. Next, your choice of amplification should get the most our of your speakers while meeting your individual preferences i.e. tubes versus solid state or other such desires. Next in line comes your choice of sources. In my mind The Source First theory is a bunch of marketing BS first promulgated by Ivor Tiefenbrun of Linn when the only product they made was a turntable. An simplistic example. If you take a pair of any well regarded speakers from Magico, Wilson, Magnepan, Focal and feed it from a Sony CD player you will get good sound. Now take a pair of big box store speakers and feed those from top of the line Esoteric, MSB or dCS you will end up with big box store sound. So one you have your speakers, your amps and your sources, then you delve into improving your sound by maximizing your set-up with dedicated lines, Everest type devices, better power cords, interconnects, improving vibration control, etc.
 
A good source is not marketing. Your argument is not logical nor is It true in real life. A Sony player into Magico is limited to the Sony player that can easily be bested by something like Esoteric. All you hear is the quality of the Sony. The Magico will not compensate to allow you to hear the difference between the Sony and Esoteric, the detail lost with the Sony is just that, lost.

Decades ago when I workd at an audio store I wandered into the service department and had an ear opening experience, a McIntosh amp was being played through a cheap set of Kenwood speakers used for testing on the bench. I could tell just from those speakers that McIntosh was something beyond what was sold in the store which was mostly receivers and some Carver.

Anyone who buys expensive speakers then cheaps out on source has wasted their money on the speakers, they'll never reach their potential in that set up.

There is as much performance improvement between a $500.00 source and $10k source as there is in same cost difference speakers, in general. To disregard the importance of source is foolish.

still-one said:
Before I can answer the initial question I have to make some basic assumptions. Assuming that we all provide normal relatively stable power to our set-up on a line(s) that is not shared with other particularly noisy devices, our systems should function well but not optimum. If that is the case then the most important choice you make is a speaker that works well in your listening room. Working well means any limitations in your room due to size, height, shape, seating position, reflections, flooring choices, etc. are somewhat mitigated. Next, your choice of amplification should get the most our of your speakers while meeting your individual preferences i.e. tubes versus solid state or other such desires. Next in line comes your choice of sources. In my mind The Source First theory is a bunch of marketing BS first promulgated by Ivor Tiefenbrun of Linn when the only product they made was a turntable. An simplistic example. If you take a pair of any well regarded speakers from Magico, Wilson, Magnepan, Focal and feed it from a Sony CD player you will get good sound. Now take a pair of big box store speakers and feed those from top of the line Esoteric, MSB or dCS you will end up with big box store sound. So one you have your speakers, your amps and your sources, then you delve into improving your sound by maximizing your set-up with dedicated lines, Everest type devices, better power cords, interconnects, improving vibration control, etc.
Click to expand...
 
Mr Peabody said:
A good source is not marketing. Your argument is not logical nor is It true in real life. A Sony player into Magico is limited to the Sony player that can easily be bested by something like Esoteric. All you hear is the quality of the Sony. The Magico will not compensate to allow you to hear the difference between the Sony and Esoteric, the detail lost with the Sony is just that, lost.

Decades ago when I workd at an audio store I wandered into the service department and had an ear opening experience, a McIntosh amp was being played through a cheap set of Kenwood speakers used for testing on the bench. I could tell just from those speakers that McIntosh was something beyond what was sold in the store which was mostly receivers and some Carver.

Anyone who buys expensive speakers then cheaps out on source has wasted their money on the speakers, they'll never reach their potential in that set up.

There is as much performance improvement between a $500.00 source and $10k source as there is in same cost difference speakers, in general. To disregard the importance of source is foolish.
Click to expand...

You are completely wrong. Any decent source will sound great with good speakers. The best source will sound like crap with cheap speakers. Just Ivor's marketing.
 
still-one said:
Before I can answer the initial question I have to make some basic assumptions. Assuming that we all provide normal relatively stable power to our set-up on a line(s) that is not shared with other particularly noisy devices, our systems should function well but not optimum. If that is the case then the most important choice you make is a speaker that works well in your listening room. Working well means any limitations in your room due to size, height, shape, seating position, reflections, flooring choices, etc. are somewhat mitigated. Next, your choice of amplification should get the most our of your speakers while meeting your individual preferences i.e. tubes versus solid state or other such desires. Next in line comes your choice of sources. In my mind The Source First theory is a bunch of marketing BS first promulgated by Ivor Tiefenbrun of Linn when the only product they made was a turntable. An simplistic example. If you take a pair of any well regarded speakers from Magico, Wilson, Magnepan, Focal and feed it from a Sony CD player you will get good sound. Now take a pair of big box store speakers and feed those from top of the line Esoteric, MSB or dCS you will end up with big box store sound. So one you have your speakers, your amps and your sources, then you delve into improving your sound by maximizing your set-up with dedicated lines, Everest type devices, better power cords, interconnects, improving vibration control, etc.
Click to expand...

I disagree, especially with your sequence of events, but ok. Anything else to add before you can answer my question?
 
on the top end everething matters.
however, lets assume every of your components costs a 500 dollars. total system is around 2k.
this normally sounds already very good.
investing here in powerfoundation or vibrationcontrol or even the source will do very little.
first of all it will be the poweramp. then the speakers, then the source.
on what level ever, the amp makes the music.
 
Stehno said:
Anyway, roughly 65% of my entire system's retail cost is dedicated solely to electrical mgmt. I can't say for certain that I'm on the right, best, and/or most efficient path but my hope is to one day reach 85%.
Click to expand...
how cool is that:)
 
personally i found running dedicated lines was a modest investment with immediately noticeable positive results....
 
preston8452 said:
Hi guys,

When it comes to sound quality, I've realized there're freaking many factors could affect it, some say the DAC is the paramount thing to be taken care of; some say the speakers are the real crucial part, given that you hear all the sounds from them, there's no certain right or wrong here I'd say, after all, " Sound Quality " is absolutely subjective...

I'd like to know which section would you invest more? cuz I read that some power cables are more expensive than speakers, I was pretty impressed by that though, I'm sure the know-how must be real high-class, or some people even rearrange the wire management in the households, or even spend tons of money on router or network switch!

For me, I might invest more on the " Power " part though, I mean, let's face it, all electronic gears require power signals, not just audio system, it's like bloodstream to them, so if the power source is stable & strong enough, I imagine that the high-end audio gears would have better performance(? that's why people use external linear power supply rather than a simple power adaptor hahaha.

Share your insights or your experiences below, I'd be grateful to learn, or telling me what you're looking for to upgrade your system is cool too.

Best,
Click to expand...

(1) the speaker<->room relationship will be 90% of your performance. so not just the speaker choice, and not just the right room, but the best speakers you can afford purchased to have the right type energy and frequency extension for your room. and then set up properly in that room. if you just get this part right, you can count on pretty good sound no matter what else you do.

(2) next; get an amp that is synergistic with the speakers and results in a presentation that you like. success here and on #1 and any cheap cd player with a volume control will sound nice.

no amount of messing around with other stuff will overcome mistakes with the speakers, room and amps. period. that's the deal. speakers are where most of your dollars should go.

(3) what type media do you prefer? get the best source you can buy and go direct to the amps.

(4) power grid noise? ambient noise? too broad a subject to boil it down too far, but these things need to be dealt with as best as possible. next is basic acoustics. simple common sense stuff. first reflections, listening position. near field or far field? how many people will be listening and how loud will it be? if it's a living room what are the limitations? you have to balance all of these things.

(5) what easy changes will yield the most ROI? again, a very broad subject. maybe a dedicated line might be a big deal, or some acoustic panels?

(6) cables? racks? simple DIY tweaks?

(7) a preamp? a better amp? a power conditioner? network tweaks?

that's how i would approach system building from scratch. right speaker for the room, and then the right amp, and go from there.
 
We will just have to disagree then.

Interesting to me you argue your point from a persn who has a digital front end most of us only dream about. Not only DAC but clock and upsampler. Maybe when you replace that with a big boxSony I can take you seriously, well, probably not.

still-one said:
You are completely wrong. Any decent source will sound great with good speakers. The best source will sound like crap with cheap speakers. Just Ivor's marketing.
Click to expand...
 
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