Power, Network, Connection, Which one matters the most to you?

[nicoff]

(1) the speaker<->room relationship will be 90% of your performance. so not just the speaker choice, and not just the right room, but the best speakers you can afford purchased to have the right type energy and frequency extension for your room. and then set up properly in that room. if you just get this part right, you can count on pretty good sound no matter what else you do.

(2) next; get an amp that is synergistic with the speakers and results in a presentation that you like. success here and on #1 and any cheap cd player with a volume control will sound nice.

no amount of messing around with other stuff will overcome mistakes with the speakers, room and amps. period. that's the deal. speakers are where most of your dollars should go.

(3) what type media do you prefer? get the best source you can buy and go direct to the amps.

(4) power grid noise? ambient noise? too broad a subject to boil it down too far, but these things need to be dealt with as best as possible. next is basic acoustics. simple common sense stuff. first reflections, listening position. near field or far field? how many people will be listening and how loud will it be? if it's a living room what are the limitations? you have to balance all of these things.

(5) what easy changes will yield the most ROI? again, a very broad subject. maybe a dedicated line might be a big deal, or some acoustic panels?

(6) cables? racks? simple DIY tweaks?

(7) a preamp? a better amp? a power conditioner? network tweaks?

that's how i would approach system building from scratch. right speaker for the room, and then the right amp, and go from there.

If I am interpreting what you wrote correctly, you are saying:

• Spend 90% of your money on Speakers + Room, and
• 10% - on everything else

And you are putting cables and power and network stuff at the last two items on that list!

That goes against the dogma that has been promoted in audiophile circles for decades. :congrats:

 

[Mike Lavigne]

If I am interpreting what you wrote correctly, you are saying:

• Spend 90% of your money on Speakers + Room, and
• 10% - on everything else

And you are putting cables and power and network stuff at the last two items on that list!

That goes against the dogma that has been promoted in audiophile circles for decades. :congrats:

when starting from scratch, yes. you have 'x' amount of dollars, no knowledge, want the best sound for your dollars. and any cables and a simple ethernet cable is all you need. just get the speakers and room correct.

that will get you the farthest down the performance road out of the gate.

then listen and learn, and go from there.

there are network pieces that are almost free that make sense to optimize. nothing wrong with that. but spending thousands of dollars on a great network switch when your speakers suck is stupid.

 

[Stehno]

(1) the speaker<->room relationship will be 90% of your performance. so not just the speaker choice, and not just the right room, but the best speakers you can afford purchased to have the right type energy and frequency extension for your room. and then set up properly in that room. if you just get this part right, you can count on pretty good sound no matter what else you do.

(2) next; get an amp that is synergistic with the speakers and results in a presentation that you like. success here and on #1 and any cheap cd player with a volume control will sound nice.

no amount of messing around with other stuff will overcome mistakes with the speakers, room and amps. period. that's the deal. speakers are where most of your dollars should go.

(3) what type media do you prefer? get the best source you can buy and go direct to the amps.

(4) power grid noise? ambient noise? too broad a subject to boil it down too far, but these things need to be dealt with as best as possible. next is basic acoustics. simple common sense stuff. first reflections, listening position. near field or far field? how many people will be listening and how loud will it be? if it's a living room what are the limitations? you have to balance all of these things.

(5) what easy changes will yield the most ROI? again, a very broad subject. maybe a dedicated line might be a big deal, or some acoustic panels?

(6) cables? racks? simple DIY tweaks?

(7) a preamp? a better amp? a power conditioner? network tweaks?

that's how i would approach system building from scratch. right speaker for the room, and then the right amp, and go from there.

Interesting, Mike. You seem pretty dogmatic in your post above. Which seems to be in direct opposition to this other rather dogmatic post of yours dated Oct 6, 2020 where you claim "it's all good", "there are no wrong paths", etc.

Between these two rather nebulous and opposing posts, you almost seem to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Regardless, I can't help but wonder what may have changed in the last 18 months?

when do you stop upgrading and just perseu greater resolution recordings | What's Best Audio and Video Forum. The Best High End Audio Forum on the planet!

 

[Mr Peabody]

Mr. Levine also has one of the most expensive digital set up you can buy as well as top analog set up. I don't see anyone preaching 90% cost on speakers practicing what they preach.

If source matters in the end it matters period.

 

[still-one]

If I am interpreting what you wrote correctly, you are saying:

• Spend 90% of your money on Speakers + Room, and
• 10% - on everything else

And you are putting cables and power and network stuff at the last two items on that list!

That goes against the dogma that has been promoted in audiophile circles for decades. :congrats:

He didn't say spend 90% of your budget on speakers and room. He stated that the speaker room relationship is 90% of the performance. He did indicate to spend your money wisely on best speakers you can afford that work in your room.

 

[nicoff]

He didn't say spend 90% of your budget on speakers and room. He stated that the speaker room relationship is 90% of the performance. He did indicate to spend your money wisely on best speakers you can afford that work in your room.

Actually, in his reply to my comment he actually confirmed that it applies to dollars as well. This is what he replied:
"when starting from scratch, yes. you have 'x' amount of dollars, no knowledge, want the best sound for your dollars. and any cables and a simple ethernet cable is all you need. just get the speakers and room correct."

 

[nicoff]

I do not think that there is a contradiction is what Mr. Levine is saying. Over the years, Mr. Levine has built a system that many consider to be one of the best around. He did so incrementally; adding here and subtracting there. He has expressed his enthusiasm about his discoveries along the way. He has now reached a mountain top that many audiophiles aspire to reach one day. From his experience climbing the mountain and reaching the top, he is in a unique position to make the statement that he made. Think of it as a "Lessons Learned" statement.

 

[GSOphile]

If I read Mike's comments correctly, they were given in the context of 'starting out' (with limited knowledge) to get the most bang for the buck (and don't lose interest due to poor initial results). His experience and knowledge of audio place him easily in the top echelon of audio users, so certainly someone worth listening to.
Full disclosure, I am also in the camp of first major audio monetary investment should be directed toward speakers.

 

[still-one]

Actually, in his reply to my comment he actually confirmed that it applies to dollars as well. This is what he replied:
"when starting from scratch, yes. you have 'x' amount of dollars, no knowledge, want the best sound for your dollars. and any cables and a simple ethernet cable is all you need. just get the speakers and room correct."

Again, I agree that he says "just get the speaker and room correct". I just don't read that as him saying spend 90% of your budget on speakers.

 

[Jim Smith]

If I am interpreting what you wrote correctly, you are saying:

• Spend 90% of your money on Speakers + Room, and
• 10% - on everything else

And you are putting cables and power and network stuff at the last two items on that list!

That goes against the dogma that has been promoted in audiophile circles for decades. :congrats:

Unfortunately, in my experience, so much of that dogma is in error.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

thanks guys, for the respectful comments. and yes, my comments were very focused on a newbie starting out.

if we travel the halls at an audio show where we have 50 rooms thrown together, the sound is dominated by speakers and rooms. period. if the room and speaker are not synergizing forget it. so this is the first most important thing. and where the focus needs to start. show comments don't get too much to preamps or sources or cables, it's rooms and speakers.

past a certain point where systems get mature and reasonably sorted out, i have commented in the past as Stehno referred to, there are no rules.....you just go with where your muse points you and find your happy place.

there are power grid and network basics, and steps to improve both, some of which are relatively cheap and easy to accomplish and even a newbie can deal with. we can avoid the audiophile markup on many of these things.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Again, I agree that he says "just get the speaker and room correct". I just don't read that as him saying spend 90% of your budget on speakers.

i think you have a different reality at a $7k budget, a $20k budget, or $40k budget starting from scratch. at $7k you might want a $6k speaker, $500 amp and $500 CD player. that might give you the best performance to begin with. and then there are new and used questions. at $20k maybe you spend $14k-$16k on the speaker, then amp and source. and at $40k a bit different yet.....but now we have more options as amp quality is more a part of the overall performance. the difference between a $25k speaker and a $30k speaker is not as great as the difference between a $4k amp and $10k amp. so you have to start balancing things. i'm just talking generally here, specific cases are all over the place.

just common sense applied to price ranges. but at the entry level speakers dominate. systems should be built on room + speakers....then everything else. even in my room at a very high level of investment, until i got my room right and speakers dialed it was frustrating. which was 10 years into being in my new room.

 

[Alkyogre]

Unfortunately, in my experience, so much of that dogma is in error.

I agree with you. Ask the man in the neighbourhood, The speakers!!! Nothing could be farther from the truth.

An addition:

power is so underestimated, same for the digital domain: Invest especially in these 2: For analog lovers of course in those parts
does not mean that other audio compartments don't count: amps, cables, dacs are also very important, everything counts .. the weakest link can mess up everything.

I think it is sad that people invest in very expensive speakers, while the source is mediocre, the cables come from the DIY shop, and the power supply came from the same box as the audio compartment. To reach high-end: Everything in the audiosetup must be great!

 

[still-one]

I agree with you. Ask the man in the neighbourhood, The speakers!!! Nothing could be farther from the truth.

An addition:

power is so underestimated, same for the digital domain: Invest especially in these 2: For analog lovers of course in those parts
does not mean that other audio compartments don't count: amps, cables, dacs are also very important, everything counts .. the weakest link can mess up everything.

I think it is sad that people invest in very expensive speakers, while the source is mediocre, the cables come from the DIY shop, and the power supply came from the same box as the audio compartment. To reach high-end: Everything in the audiosetup must be great!

No one is saying addressing power is not a key component for a great high-end set-uo. I would never want to give up my dedicated lines, my Shunyata Everest or whatever happens to be my latest power cords. Saying that as long as a user has normal clean power someone such as Jim Smith who posted above will be able to come in and address "most" speaker placement issues. When I say most he will be challenged if a purchaser did not use some common sense with the type and size of speaker they acquired based upon the listening room. (size , shape, flooring and treatments)

I am not advocating a lack of common sense in how one allocates their audio dollars. Yes in the end everything matters. But, I am convinced that speakers should be the primary driver of a system. A great source is the icing on the cake, not the primary driver.

 

[Mr Peabody]

What is this statement about, "if we travel the halls at an audio show where we have 50 rooms thrown together, the sound is dominated by speakers and rooms. period. if the room and speaker are not synergizing forget it. so this is the first most important thing. and where the focus needs to start. show comments don't get too much to preamps or sources or cables, it's rooms and speakers."

That is not true. Usually electronic companies pair with a speaker manufacturer to share a room. No one goes out saying, oh nice speakers, what where they driving them with? Your statement is ridiculous. Look at the recent FL show, did anyone say, wow, VS was showing nice speakers in a great room without mentioning VAC? Did anyone talk about DSG and forget Lampizator, no. In fact, the Horizon was mentioned more. I can go on and on with examples to demonstrate your inaccurate statement. I can't really even think of one to substantiate your statement. Wilson is almost always with DCS, shows someone with brains realizes the benefit of a good source. I have never been in a room with a $500.00 CDP for source, at the least some may stream. Brands like Gamute, MBL, German Physics who have same brand never show their speakers and hide the rest of the gear behind a curtain or opt to run to Best Buy to pick up just something to drive the ole speakers with.

And, very few rooms at shows are even set up correctly, they do with what they have. I've been in rooms where the drapes were wide open behind the speakers.

90% of a budget on speakers is not logical, defies common sense and the main thing not a single person saying that nonsense practices it.

thanks guys, for the respectful comments. and yes, my comments were very focused on a newbie starting out.

if we travel the halls at an audio show where we have 50 rooms thrown together, the sound is dominated by speakers and rooms. period. if the room and speaker are not synergizing forget it. so this is the first most important thing. and where the focus needs to start. show comments don't get too much to preamps or sources or cables, it's rooms and speakers.

past a certain point where systems get mature and reasonably sorted out, i have commented in the past as Stehno referred to, there are no rules.....you just go with where your muse points you and find your happy place.

there are power grid and network basics, and steps to improve both, some of which are relatively cheap and easy to accomplish and even a newbie can deal with. we can avoid the audiophile markup on many of these things.

 

[Stehno]

.....

90% of a budget on speakers is not logical, defies common sense and the main thing not a single person saying that nonsense practices it.

Indeed. Mr. Peabody, I perceive tho art a thinking man.