New Magico speakers arriving 04/2015!

LVB said:
Actually, it is the new graphene based woofers cones that are lighter and stiffer...

From your argument, one can claim that the new F35 fighter plane has no innovation in it since the Wright Brothers flown a plane 100 years ago.

So if that is you qualification of innovation, then yes I will give you that, Magico have not found a new way to produce sound. But it sure found many ways to reduce the common issues loudspeakers have. If you are dismissing these facts (see objective data in many publications), this conversation can’t really go anywhere.


You clearly will not be happy to be proven wrong so lets just move on...
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Wow...your reading comprehension must not be very developed. I don't even know what to say to this. And please don't presume to know whether I will or will not be happy to be proven wrong. I stated that I would be happy to be proven wrong and when you present me with facts and data to the contrary, I will be happy to admit so. But in order for you to do that, you will have to start presenting data-driven specifics vs. the amorphous and gross generalities that you seem to prefer to stick with.

And buddy, I used to head up the Industrials Equity Research team at a major investment house and I personally covered Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, and Boeing, and there are plenty of innovations (new principles never implemented before in aerospace applications) in the F-22 and F-35 in the areas of materials science, aerospace structures, avionics/radar systems, and pilot/plane control interfaces that were first thought of, designed and implemented in those two platforms.

We agree on one thing, let's move on because this is going no where fast.
 
Interesting as Spock would say. This initial post was that Magico's tech is behind other speaker manufacturers (clearly not the case nor did anyone say it was superior, just what they did) has turned into the usual bunch of Magico bashing.

If anyone thinks they know what ANY product sounds like until they have it their own system, they are sadly mistaken. And that's a fact. Until you have all the time to sit and spend honing the setup, one's conclusions are always suspect. That includes cables, amps, etc to get a full picture.

Let me also give a pearl of wisdom that I have learned over the years. Products that knock your socks off right away rarely stand the test of time because the ear is honing in more on the brain's more primitive limbic, fight or flight response. For instance, consider the hyper detailed period of the '90s in audio.

OTOH, products that leave you ho hum at the beginning often with extended listening just begin to sound right and like music.

Finally, remember that most, if not all of us, have spent a lot of time learning about the characteristics of their rooms, playing with speaker positioning, different combos of gear, etc. exhibitors have basically a day though to this day don't understand people who bring brand new unplayed gear or are soldering the amp together the morning of the show.
 
Myles B. Astor said:
Interesting as Spock would say. This initial post was that Magico's tech is behind other speaker manufacturers (clearly not the case nor did anyone say it was superior, just what they did) has turned into the usual bunch of Magico bashing.

If anyone thinks they know what ANY product sounds like until they have it their own system, they are sadly mistaken. And that's a fact. Until you have all the time to sit and spend honing the setup, one's conclusions are always suspect. That includes cables, amps, etc to get a full picture.

Let me also give a pearl of wisdom that I have learned over the years. Products that knock your socks off right away rarely stand the test of time because the ear is honing in more on the brain's more primitive limbic, fight or flight response. For instance, consider the hyper detailed period of the '90s in audio.

OTOH, products that leave you ho hum at the beginning often with extended listening just begin to sound right and like music.
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I think it was the extreme position taken by LVB that caused others to throw down the gauntlet so to speak. He basically inferred (and not so subtly) that only Magico has true innovation in their speakers and most people are too dumb to separate innovation from marketing.
 
cmalak said:
Wow...your reading comprehension must not be very developed. I don't even know what to say to this. And please don't presume to know whether I will or will not be happy to be proven wrong. I stated that I would be happy to be proven wrong and when you present me with facts and data to the contrary, I will be happy to admit so. But in order for you to do that, you will have to start presenting data-driven specifics vs. the amorphous and gross generalities that you seem to prefer to stick with.

And buddy, I used to head up the Industrials Equity Research team at a major investment house and I personally covered Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, and Boeing, and there are plenty of innovations (new principles never implemented before in aerospace applications) in the F-22 and F-35 in the areas of materials science, aerospace structures, avionics/radar systems, and pilot/plane control interfaces that were first thought of, designed and implemented in those two platforms.

We agree on one thing, let's move on because this is going no where fast.
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I think it's how you define innovation. In audio --as in most industries-- there's little innovation. (Let me ask though-don't you think the real companies come up with these new products with some idea that they'll be used in other new and creative applications?) But what leading companies do is recognize and incorporate new technologies. Did cj invent Teflon caps? Hell no. But they recognized and realized the cap's potential (after all it was only available in very small values up to then) and used it to improve their equipment's sound. Did Dan D'Agostino invent surface mount tech or wave soldering? Hell no. But Krell was located in that high tech, military supplier area of CT and he too realized the benefits of these new technologies. (Oh yes, maybe he does deserve some credit for finding all the problems with wave soldering in the 250).
 
mep said:
I think it was the extreme position taken by LVB that caused others to throw down the gauntlet so to speak. He basically inferred (and not so subtly) that only Magico has true innovation in their speakers and most people are too dumb to separate innovation from marketing.
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Exactly. And Myles, if you were to read my posts, you will see no Magico bashing whatsoever, simply a refutation of specific statements made primarily by LVB. Anyway, I am going to bow out at this point because this is no longer a productive course of enquiry/discussion. Back to the regularly scheduled programming.
 
Myles B. Astor said:
I think it's how you define innovation. In audio --as in most industries-- there's little innovation. (Let me ask though-don't you think the real companies come up with these new products with some idea that they'll be used in other new and creative applications?) But what leading companies do is recognize and incorporate new technologies. Did cj invent Teflon caps? Hell no. But they recognized and realized the cap's potential (after all it was only available in very small values up to then) and used it to improve their equipment's sound. Did Dan D'Agostino invent surface mount tech or wave soldering? Hell no. But Krell was located in that high tech, military supplier area of CT and he too realized the benefits of these new technologies. (Oh yes, maybe he does deserve some credit for finding all the problems with wave soldering in the 250).
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I could be mistaken, but I thought I read that Dan's new company no longer uses multi-layer boards. He is back to using through-hole technology boards. So, no more surface mount parts. I believe the reason given for going back to through-hole technology was that it sounds better.
 
cmalak said:
Adam (and LVB)...can you please tell me what technical innovation Magico has brought to the table?
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I believe they pioneered using nanotubes (carbon ones) to stiffen their diaphrams and now doing the same with graphene. Those are two genuine innovations that spring to mind, but there may be other.

But more than pure innovation, I believe they excel as combining various state of the art technologies in a single product.

Have they been the first to use aluminium to build a speaker ? No, there was Goldmund with their Apologue model back in 1986 (and someone even mentioned in this thread Celestion in mid 70s).

Have they been the first to use a frame system, to brace the walls to increase speaker's stiffness ? No, the credit must go to B&W and their Matrix series models.

Have they been the first to use berillium tweeter ? No, Yamaha did that in late 70s in their NS1000 model.

Have they been the first to use carbon fibre to build speaker panels ? No, Wilson Benech launched a speaker with CF panels like 10 years ago, and Morel even builds a speaker that is entirely made of CF - the Fat Lady.

Clearly all of those technologies already existed before Magico started using them. However, Magico was the first company that combined them into a single product. That, plus the nanotubes and graphene technologies that nobody else uses, puts them at the very front of current loudspeaker technology.

Is there any other speaker that is more technologicly advanced on the market today than the Magico M-Project ? If there is one, I'm not aware of it.
 
I certainly wasn't bashing Magico, in fact they make a great sounding speaker.

What Cyril and I were responding to was an absolutely arrogant post from LVB that stated Revel,and other manufacturers were mid-fi compared to Magico.

That's an asinine statement if I've ever heard one. And if he had any credibility he would retract and apologize for saying such an ignorant thing.
 
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What a silly thread this has turned into - people hear what they want to hear and ignore what they don't want to hear. So many logical fallacies...

Anyhow, one of the oft repeated lines about our hobby is "One person's high-fi is another person's mid-fi". There's no way to prove right or wrong in a discussion like this - it's all opinion and bias.
 
Elberoth said:
I believe they pioneered using nanotubes (carbon ones) to stiffen their diaphrams and now doing the same with graphene. Those are two genuine innovations that spring to mind, but there may be other.

But more than pure innovation, I believe they excel as combining various state of the art technologies in a single product.

Have they been the first to use aluminium to build a speaker ? No, there was Goldmund with their Apologue model back in 1986 (and someone even mentioned in this thread Celestion in mid 70s).

Have they been the first to use a frame system, to brace the walls to increase speaker's stiffness ? No, the credit must go to B&W and their Matrix series models.

Have they been the first to use berillium tweeter ? No, Yamaha did that in late 70s in their NS1000 model.

Have they been the first to use carbon fibre to build speaker panels ? No, Wilson Benech launched a speaker with CF panels like 10 years ago, and Morel even builds a speaker that is entirely made of CF - the Fat Lady.

Clearly all of those technologies already existed before Magico started using them. However, Magico was the first company that combined them into a single product. That, plus the nanotubes and graphene technologies that nobody else uses, puts them at the very front of current loudspeaker technology.

Is there any other speaker that is more technologicly advanced on the market today than the Magico M-Project ? If there is one, I'm not aware of it.
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Well said Adam. Btw, you forgot to mention Magico's patented ellyptical symmetry crossover technology and computer-modelled polycarbonate midrange enclosure designed using Finite Element analysis modeling tools, both of which are unique to Magico.
 
Elberoth said:
I believe they pioneered using nanotubes (carbon ones) to stiffen their diaphrams and now doing the same with graphene. Those are two genuine innovations that spring to mind, but there may be other.

But more than pure innovation, I believe they excel as combining various state of the art technologies in a single product.

Have they been the first to use aluminium to build a speaker ? No, there was Goldmund with their Apologue model back in 1986 (and someone even mentioned in this thread Celestion in mid 70s).

Have they been the first to use a frame system, to brace the walls to increase speaker's stiffness ? No, the credit must go to B&W and their Matrix series models.

Have they been the first to use berillium tweeter ? No, Yamaha did that in late 70s in their NS1000 model.

Have they been the first to use carbon fibre to build speaker panels ? No, Wilson Benech launched a speaker with CF panels like 10 years ago, and Morel even builds a speaker that is entirely made of CF - the Fat Lady.

Clearly all of those technologies already existed before Magico started using them. However, Magico was the first company that combined them into a single product. That, plus the nanotubes and graphene technologies that nobody else uses, puts them at the very front of current loudspeaker technology.

Is there any other speaker that is more technologicly advanced on the market today than the Magico M-Project ? If there is one, I'm not aware of it.
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Adam...with what you said above, I totally agree. Alon is a damn solid engineer and builds his speakers with fanatical attention to detail and is at the cutting edge of optimizing/improving existing technologies and integrating them into a cohesive whole at premium quality standards. I have no problems with that statement because it is in fact true. As others have said, we have been reacting to much more expansive statements by another person (and not as it relates to what this person said about Magico but what he said as it relates to all other speaker manufacturers compared to Magico at the high-end of the spectrum).

Anyhow, I promised to shut up on the subject and with this last statement, I do so gladly :D
 
I think back ten years when nobody had heard of Magico. This obscure, little company released a 180 lb two-way mini monitor on an integrated stand that sold for $20K back in 2005. That release made quite a splash and quite a few headlines. Suddenly, magazines all over the world had cover articles about this speaker. People marveled at how big, powerful and realistic it sounded.

Ten years later, everyone has an opinion about Magico and one of the most popular topics on the forums. And judging from the virtual tours of their factory, it is an impressive operation.

It is difficult to not be impressed by the impact, influence and success of this company.
 
Odyssey said:
Yes! An emotional connection to the music is what I'm looking for thru the sound chain ending with the speaker. The emotional connection is what leads to the irrational decision to spend silly sums to get there. :)
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And at the end of the day, that's what matters. All the technical advancements in the world are great, but not unless it results in connecting the listener emotionally to the music.
 
The Sandman said:
What a silly thread this has turned into - people hear what they want to hear and ignore what they don't want to hear. So many logical fallacies...

Anyhow, one of the oft repeated lines about our hobby is "One person's high-fi is another person's mid-fi". There's no way to prove right or wrong in a discussion like this - it's all opinion and bias.
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Sandman...I also agree with the general gist of your statement and I recognize that I played a part in extending the silly arguments that I should have never reacted to in the first place and for that I apologize to all forum members. It was a waste of time and mental energy, and when I sit down and read about the mounting death toll in Nepal from the earthquake there and the violence erupting in Baltimore amid heightened sensitivities concerning race relations and police communities around this country, I am reminded about how stupid it is to argue about this stuff. It's a hobby aimed at bringing joy and a sense of peace and communion with the fantastic art form we call music. So once again, sorry for playing a part in extending the silliness on this thread to all ASers.
 
Me too!

I still don't appreciate any type of elitists viewpoints. If you are an elitist, there are other forums that you might like better.
 
Odyssey said:
Yes! An emotional connection to the music is what I'm looking for thru the sound chain ending with the speaker. The emotional connection is what leads to the irrational decision to spend silly sums to get there. :)
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Well said, Le Roy. The emotional connection I had with Ella Fitzgerald, Frank Sinatra, John Coltrane and Miles Davis when I listened to the Raidho D3's last Fall drove me to change my speakers, amps and preamp. Once I heard the D3's, I knew I was hooked and had to have them. Hard to rationalize, when I already had Pass XP-30, XA-100.8 and Salon 2 that sounded terrific but since then I haven't looked back and I'm extremely happy with my decision.

Ken
 
I am an engineer at a fairly high tech company that makes parts out of fairly high tech materials.....PEEK parts on the M-1 Abrams Tank, optical grade light pipes on the F-16 Fighter, carbon fiber on the new S Series Mercedes, barium sulphate in feeding tubes compnents. I love talking about technology. As Mike calls it, some of us get all geeky on this stuff. That said, the space shuttle has quite a bit of technology but I would not want to listen to it in my room. The point of this diatribe is not self aggrandizement but to point out that imo when it comes to this hobby technology and SQ do not necessarily correlate. In fact they may negatively correlate.

I spent all day Saturday enjoying a number of phenomenally musical systems at Axpona by artisans like Harbeth, Volti, Tannoy, and a few others that some might consider to utilize a moderate level of technology. God forbid some even use such archaic materials as wood, bamboo, polypropylene and paper. I also spent a great deal of time trying to engage in two rooms with $300,000 worth of Magico's latest technology. I do not want to argue about what's better. At this level we all know it is a subjective analysis, but I will say that there is no question to me that what I heard in the Magico rooms was very different than the others and simply not to my liking.

Technology correlates nicely to success in laboratories or physical applications which require defined and measurable physical properties. I do not see that as an absolute in our hobby and I certainly don't think peoples inability to understand the technology has anything to do with their lack of approval for a given product.
 
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