My Session With Jim Smith
- Thread starter Mike
- Start date
Jim Smith
Member
As you might expect, I’ve watched this thread from the beginning. Mark & Mike probably remember from our visit - I typically don’t feel comfortable participating in threads like this one as it can look like self-promotion. However, a few points need a bit of explanation:
Regarding the GBS book & DVDs, the Quarter Notes newsletters are included with the purchase. There have been seventeen (#18 is coming soon), equivalent to another (slightly smaller) book in content and size. Unfortunately, Amazon doesn’t allow me to contact purchasers directly, so the only recipients are the thousands of purchasers who purchased from our GBS website. If you purchased the book from Amazon, or you never got on our list for some reason, send me an e-mail - jim at getbettersound dot com - with the e-mail address where you would like to receive them, and I will add you to our list as well as send you access to all of the previous issues.
Measurements to 1/64[SUP]th[/SUP] of an inch – not exactly, but here’s why… When voicing a system, it’s easy to make slight adjustments to speaker position and pretty soon, they are not particularly equal. So I – with the client’s input – establish a center line as well as a point from the listening position, so that I can keep close to the correct geometry. Tape on the floor can work but is open to interpretation and doesn’t account for uneven surfaces as are common in many homes. My Leica laser measurement rangefinder goes to 1/32”. Why do I measure that precisely? Well it’s possible, and I am OCD… :what:
Without getting into detail, I voice for Dynamics, Presence & Tone.
Location of Mike’s components – The images of his room are a bit deceptive in terms of layout. His components are low and behind his Avantgardes. After a slight adjustment, the placement didn’t seem to be affecting Dynamics, Presence, and Tone.
What happens with other speakers? - Should Mike choose to place another speaker in the room, the placement of the seat should still be correct (with the possible exception of the Raidhos, due to their large peak at 70-80 Hz.). One reason that I require the clients to be present during the voicing session is that they will know better how to affect changes later. But the seat location – which IMO is by far the most fundamental adjustment – is usually correct for future speakers as well. Then it’s a matter of speaker placement - but with a considerable head-start to getting it right.
Codex – I have listened to a lot of DACS. IMO, the new Ayre Codex punches way above its price point. With all of the equipment that I carry on RoomPlay voicing sessions, the fact that it is relatively small and lightweight is a welcome bonus.
My Audiogon comment about unused subs in Mike's listening room – they tend to play along with the main speakers, only slightly out of tune. I always recommend removing them from the room, or failing that, try to at least short the + & - binding posts to minimize free – and unwanted – movement. If not addressed in some way or other, the deleterious affect on Dynamics, Presence, and Tone is allowed to continue and the user may not realize how easy it’d be to improve the system.
In my career, I have rarely – in fact, almost never – heard any system – at any price – initially performing at near it’s potential. This includes at audio shows, dealer showrooms, manufacturer showrooms, reviewers (haven’t heard Myles’ system, though), and in audiophiles’ homes. Often, the highest priced systems are the worst offenders. They should be awesome, but all-too-often fall woefully short. I think it is because most audiophiles simply do not have a reference for what is possible. It doesn’t matter how intelligent they are, if they don’t have a reference, how can they achieve the true potential of their systems? And buying more gear may be a pleasant exercise and yield some sonic benefits, but it cannot approach the effect of Dynamics, Presence & Tone when delivered with the best acoustic wave-launch into the room and receiving at the listening seat. A big IMO, of course.
FWIW - I never planned to do the RoomPlay thing – it was actually created by readers requesting some help. All I did was give it a name.
About the Avantgarde DUOs at Mike’s – I am trying to figure how I can get a pair… :doubtful:
Although I did nothing with the Zeros downstairs, they were amazing - in fact, finding fault seemed a waste of time - I just wanted to luxuriate in the music....
Regarding the GBS book & DVDs, the Quarter Notes newsletters are included with the purchase. There have been seventeen (#18 is coming soon), equivalent to another (slightly smaller) book in content and size. Unfortunately, Amazon doesn’t allow me to contact purchasers directly, so the only recipients are the thousands of purchasers who purchased from our GBS website. If you purchased the book from Amazon, or you never got on our list for some reason, send me an e-mail - jim at getbettersound dot com - with the e-mail address where you would like to receive them, and I will add you to our list as well as send you access to all of the previous issues.
Measurements to 1/64[SUP]th[/SUP] of an inch – not exactly, but here’s why… When voicing a system, it’s easy to make slight adjustments to speaker position and pretty soon, they are not particularly equal. So I – with the client’s input – establish a center line as well as a point from the listening position, so that I can keep close to the correct geometry. Tape on the floor can work but is open to interpretation and doesn’t account for uneven surfaces as are common in many homes. My Leica laser measurement rangefinder goes to 1/32”. Why do I measure that precisely? Well it’s possible, and I am OCD… :what:
Without getting into detail, I voice for Dynamics, Presence & Tone.
Location of Mike’s components – The images of his room are a bit deceptive in terms of layout. His components are low and behind his Avantgardes. After a slight adjustment, the placement didn’t seem to be affecting Dynamics, Presence, and Tone.
What happens with other speakers? - Should Mike choose to place another speaker in the room, the placement of the seat should still be correct (with the possible exception of the Raidhos, due to their large peak at 70-80 Hz.). One reason that I require the clients to be present during the voicing session is that they will know better how to affect changes later. But the seat location – which IMO is by far the most fundamental adjustment – is usually correct for future speakers as well. Then it’s a matter of speaker placement - but with a considerable head-start to getting it right.
Codex – I have listened to a lot of DACS. IMO, the new Ayre Codex punches way above its price point. With all of the equipment that I carry on RoomPlay voicing sessions, the fact that it is relatively small and lightweight is a welcome bonus.
My Audiogon comment about unused subs in Mike's listening room – they tend to play along with the main speakers, only slightly out of tune. I always recommend removing them from the room, or failing that, try to at least short the + & - binding posts to minimize free – and unwanted – movement. If not addressed in some way or other, the deleterious affect on Dynamics, Presence, and Tone is allowed to continue and the user may not realize how easy it’d be to improve the system.
In my career, I have rarely – in fact, almost never – heard any system – at any price – initially performing at near it’s potential. This includes at audio shows, dealer showrooms, manufacturer showrooms, reviewers (haven’t heard Myles’ system, though), and in audiophiles’ homes. Often, the highest priced systems are the worst offenders. They should be awesome, but all-too-often fall woefully short. I think it is because most audiophiles simply do not have a reference for what is possible. It doesn’t matter how intelligent they are, if they don’t have a reference, how can they achieve the true potential of their systems? And buying more gear may be a pleasant exercise and yield some sonic benefits, but it cannot approach the effect of Dynamics, Presence & Tone when delivered with the best acoustic wave-launch into the room and receiving at the listening seat. A big IMO, of course.
FWIW - I never planned to do the RoomPlay thing – it was actually created by readers requesting some help. All I did was give it a name.
About the Avantgarde DUOs at Mike’s – I am trying to figure how I can get a pair… :doubtful:
Although I did nothing with the Zeros downstairs, they were amazing - in fact, finding fault seemed a waste of time - I just wanted to luxuriate in the music....
Surely the hospital will refuse to admit him if he replaces the Duo Mezzos with the Trios + Basahorns
Having said that, it was an excellent write-up about what is possible with one's current equipment, and about how it is as important to measure (and have an experienced expert interpret and take corrective action) as it is to listen with golden ears.
This reminds me of the local Magico + SMT dealer who will take anywhere from 2-3 hours to set up a new system. Measure, adjust and listen, then repeat until done. I used to think that it was extreme, in particular, the repeated measurements, but no more.
bzr
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...pretty much!
cmalak
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Jim...thank you for your clarifying comments above. I have one question: for those of us who do not have a dedicated room but rather have our system in a living room or family room where selecting the optimum position for the listening chair/couch etc....is not an option, and, hence where only moving the speakers might be possible (also with limitations), to what extent do circumstances such as these hamper the benefit of voicing a system to the room? I imagine the above scenario probably represents the majority of audiophiles' situations.
Btw, I also purchased your GBS book and receive your quarterly newsletter. Thanks.
Cyril
Btw, I also purchased your GBS book and receive your quarterly newsletter. Thanks.
Cyril
Jim Smith
Member
Hi Cyril,
Your question is excellent and it applies to a lot of audiophiles with whom I communicate. Frankly, I am surprised at just how many do have dedicated rooms. Almost certainly, my sample is not random....
I have edited some of the copy from Book Two of my new project, and pasted it here. It addresses your questions.
The first step requires getting the bass to be the best it can be in your room
Maximizing your system’s bass effects must be done by locating the best listening position first, NOT by moving the speakers around!
At some point, you will adjust the speaker positions, and the bass can sometimes be affected by that movement. But any potential changes to the bass after speaker movement will be slight when compared to finding the best listening position in the room.
So, what is the best bass?
It’s not necessarily the deepest bass. What we want is the smoothest bass, and we care about it from as low as the system goes in the smoothest bass listening position up until at least 250 Hz.
Why is the listening position most critical?
Essentially, your room’s shape and dimensions dictate its resonances from 25 Hz to 250 Hz. As you move around in the room, there will be places where some bass notes (or frequencies) are emphasized, and where at the same time other bass notes will be de-emphasized—and perhaps almost missing entirely.
Whether the notes are too strong or too weak, the phenomenon that causes either result is the same: The room modes (or resonances) at certain frequencies are caused by the interactions of dimensional effects. In other words, the length, width, and height of the room. Of course there are oblique and other dimensions, but the interaction of resonances due to the individual room’s dimensions is the main culprit.
For example: If the height of your room indicates a resonant frequency of x Hz, and the width of your room produces a resonance at some harmonic multiple of its basic resonance, or y Hz, then depending on the room’s dimensions, the x and y may coincide at or near the same frequency. If they are in anti-phase with one another, you’ll have a suck-out (diminished bass); if they are in-phase, you’ll have a peak. When you move your measuring/listening position—even with movements of less than a foot, the x and y relationship will change, often quite obviously.
Incidentally, don’t be alarmed when you discover that you have uneven response in the 25 to 250 Hz region. Everyone does. In determining the best listening position, you are looking for the place where the differences between peaks and dips are minimized—i.e., the smoothest response you can achieve for your system in your room.
Please note that I am talking about doing this organically, without electronic assistance such as room or loudspeaker equalization. If you want to go back later and electronically EQ this original finding as a potential fine-tuning tweak, (note that I said potential—sometimes the flattest measured response in the bass is boring) then that’s fine, but you need to start without EQ to get the best results from your foundational step.
Why is getting the smoothest bass by locating the best listening position always the first step?
There are several important reasons for focusing on the bass as the first step. Any of these individually should be sufficient, but together they are overwhelmingly important to our project.
First, if the bass booms away at one or more frequencies due to room resonances, then you lose some of the dynamic contrast your music was meant to convey. Plus, booming bass covers up some of the finer musical detail and even instrumental/vocal decay, as well as shifting the intended musical emphasis to an unintended location. The music as a whole will never feel right and will be much less emotionally engaging. The intended dynamic contrasts will have been altered.
If there is a bass suck-out at one or more frequencies, the results will be largely the same: a lack of dynamic range because some notes you were meant to experience will be diminished. And some of the intended musical emphasis will be shifted away from its intended location.
Second, although the rest of the response may have some irregularities, they are very small compared to the effects of room resonances in the bass. Bass issues are most easily addressed, first and primarily with listener placement and then, to a lesser extent, with speaker placement.
All too often, I see audiophiles and even dealers and manufacturers move their speakers around without giving much thought, if any, to this most crucial aspect of where the listening seat is located. Yes, you can most likely make an improvement with speaker positioning from practically any listening position. It’s just that this will not have nearly the same impact on the musical engagement.
What if I cannot move my listening seat?
You may be thinking right now about how you can move your listening seat when the furniture in your home has already been carefully placed, and changing its arrangement may cause household distress. Yes, if you simply override the wishes of the decor-oriented person in the house, you may get more from your music—but at the cost of an unhappy spouse or partner.
Sometimes, a creative workaround is necessary to avoid relational distress. That said, in all my experience of voicing clients’ systems, I have always been able to arrive at a workable solution that made everyone happy.
The following is what has worked for me when seating flexibility is limited. First, find the best location to listen. Then, if this cannot be a new permanent seating area, arrange for comfortable temporary seating in that location. This can mean a temporary chair, putting some cushions behind the main seat, or sliding the seat forward or backward to a predetermined point. But this also means always putting things back in their usual spot if you rearrange things for your listening session. For "everyday listening", you may need to leave things as they are now - or at least close to original. It'll still be OK. But when you want to hear what you paid for, you have a path to get there.
If you have a dedicated listening room or an exceptionally cooperative significant other, count yourself lucky. You still have work to do to take your music system to the next level, but at least you can do as you wish!
To proceed further, you need a reference point from which to fine-tune your speaker placement. Once you know where you will be sitting, then you can work on speaker placement based on the best listening position.
You want to move the seating area backwards and forward, at each new position listening to the relative level of the reference music or pink noise cuts. You are listening for the position that yields the smallest level changes – in other words, reduce the delta between peaks and dips - peaks are smaller and dips are less deep. I would start with each change being about a foot. Ultimately, you will be looking for the best performance from smaller movements, until you find the correct position.
This process is not a quick one, especially without any instruments to facilitate the process. That makes it none the less important. Indeed it is foundational to what we will do.
Also, if your seat is along the back wall, it's usually possible to make that work, perhaps with some slight variation.
still-one
Active member
Great thread. Great questions and answers.
MDP
Behavior Moderator (be nice police!)
Watching Jim work has been an education. Even though I don't have the equipment to measure where the bass response in my room is the smoothest, I used a lot of bass heavy music to find the a seating position where it sounded the best to me.
Last night when I was listening, I could definitely hear details that where missing before. And my music has never sounded better.
Last night when I was listening, I could definitely hear details that where missing before. And my music has never sounded better.
Very informative and thought provoking thread - many thanks to both Mike and Jim. I'm going to have to watch Jim's DVD.
My dedicated space was designed with an acoustical foundation, and the finished room frequency measured to help determine the placement of the interior wall treatments.
Perhaps this not the end all I thought they might be.:|
My dedicated space was designed with an acoustical foundation, and the finished room frequency measured to help determine the placement of the interior wall treatments.
Perhaps this not the end all I thought they might be.:|
Jim Smith
Member
I will never forget it. I was Magnepan's National Sales Manager in 1977. We had built a new "serious" listening room.
Even back then, there were accepted "best" room dimensions (still seen as best today by many). It was built EXACTLY to the called-for dimensions.
erfect:It took us over 6 months of struggling to get the sound as good as it finally became, in a room that was supposed to be relatively problem free.
We had other projects going, so we would work on it as time permitted, but it was far from what we thought we were getting.
bzr
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I will never forget it. I was Magnepan's National Sales Manager in 1977. We had built a new "serious" listening room.
Even back then, there were accepted "best" room dimensions (still seen as best today by many). It was built EXACTLY to the called-for dimensions.
It took us over 6 months of struggling to get the sound as good as it finally became, in a room that was supposed to be relatively problem free.
We had other projects going, so we would work on it as time permitted, but it was far from what we thought we were getting.
Jim, I've heard many rooms where this applies, also the opposite. Meaning a room that just shouldn't sound that good because it had a stairwell in the space also or a t-shaped room where it had to effect the sound within reasoning & yet, these spaces I have mentioned had exceptional quality of sound
Jim Smith
Member
sleepysurf
Member
Darn! Wish I knew that Mike had Jim coming down. I would've asked if he could extend his FL trip for a RoomPlay session in my place! Maybe some local Suncoast or Sarasota Audiophile Society members can pool their resources, and bring him back for a week or two (or convince him to semi-retire down here <g>).
bzr
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microstrip
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Jim,
After reading Mike description of the first step in the original post I was prepared to order your book. However, reading your comments on book II triggered a doubt - is this process of finding the best listening placed described in your Book One ? Just one more question as I appreciate reading a lot more than seeing movies - is there any important information in the DVDs that is not covered in the book?
Thanks!
Jim Smith
Member
This topic is also covered in GBS, both the book and the DVD set.
There are are topics that are different or perhaps illustrated better in the DVD. On the other hand, the book has more info with 202 tips-293 pages whereas the DVD set is three DVDs.
But I prefer to refrain from talking about details that might appear as selling Get Better Sound or other services on this forum.
My email is jim at getbettersound dot com