RepublicOfTexas69
Active member
If you say so. My Robotics team begs to differ.
My next preamp: Cary SPL-90 CLONE
- Thread starter Feanor
- Start date
Kingrex
Well-known member
Your exactly right. Its an army. ] i find it laughable the news presents it like it 's some sort of miracle. It will be an atrocity on a global scale.
I'm looking at buying a set of Headphones and was considering Hifiman-for some reason I thought they were made in Taiwan-I don't much keep up with the headphone market. They are, of course, made in mainland China, so they are off my list. Which is a shame because they really are very good and sell like hotcakes. No judgment on folks who go that route-its not my business-but I'd rather not. I agree, however, with an earlier comment that the Chinese can make products at about whatever quality and price point they choose and, one way or another, seem to be getting better at it all the time. Which is why, I suppose, lots of brands choose to design at home and manufacture in China. Obviously, they've made a business calculation that the "Made in China" label doesn't carry enough liabilities to offset the economic advantages. I don't particularly like that, but I do understand it.
Kingrex
Well-known member
I try not to be the moral police. I usually go with what is legal. I purchase what I believe supports my values.
Don't patents last 7 years???? What's the last pharmaceutical you bought. I don't think I can even get brand name stuff through my insurance. Its all generic. And probably made in China. literally. Watch 60 minutes. Do we complain about that. Or do we say, no. I want the $30K medicine. Not the $70 generic stuff.
Would it be better if they said, ( Modeled after the Dartzeel 108 Amplifier). Or maybe, (Voicing like a Cary SLY80. Using premium capacitors, resistors and custom output transformers to surpass stock performance for a fraction of the price).
I recognize China is capable of mass producing anything. And it generally does it at the expense of human dignity. More people suffer a lack of hope and change in China than anywhere else. And yet Americans can't get enough of their new Apple this or that. Remember Nike in the 80s. Did the bad press impact them??? I don't buy Nike because of it.
The plight of the people of China is real. But if you dig down, the boutique audio builder in China is really the outlier. The independent entrepreneur doing all they can to rise above the decay below. If you Knock them down and hold them to the politics of moral righteousness. Ensure they work in my friends factory with the doors locked and no hope for a better life. Did you benefit Cary. Or Dartzeel. Of did you just impact a poor persons life in a more negative way. The audiophile buying the Dartzeel for $5K would never buy the real Dartzeel for $42,000. The shocking part is. They may be getting something that in a blind test, may be indistinguishable from the real thing. That should be what people are upset about. Why is audio equipment so darn expensive. And has the performance needle moved as prices escalate. Or have we bought into some contrived believe that $$$$ equal better sound.
ggdudeabides
Active member
Thanks Rex for your POV. You make some valid points. However, you paint this issue with a very broad brush. Way too broad in my view. There are many things today that are "legal" but morally despicable and reprehensible nonetheless. Selling a product and using the exact model number and original manufacturer's name (with a solid reputation) to generate interest and product sales is morally wrong. It is theft irregardless of a design patent expiration. But it is "legal".
Cary is a small, boutique company that doesn't charge outrageous prices. And seems to be good value for the money. Had their 306 Pro CD player. Incredible sound for the price. Beat the comparable Esoteric (a really big audio corporation) for half the price. THAT, for me, is the difference IN THIS CASE. Pure and simple. Best.
Cary is a small, boutique company that doesn't charge outrageous prices. And seems to be good value for the money. Had their 306 Pro CD player. Incredible sound for the price. Beat the comparable Esoteric (a really big audio corporation) for half the price. THAT, for me, is the difference IN THIS CASE. Pure and simple. Best.
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Feanor
Active member
- Thread Author
- #86
Again, when a maker's out-patent design is copied they have no right to complain. (There is no special argument for audio equipment.) If the don't like it they can come up with a NEW patentable design, (many do just that), OR they can reduce their prices -- those are the options in a free market.
Makers charge what the market will bear; what they're selling might be stellar design or maybe just their reputation and a beautiful case. The buyer who paid full price made their choice. If some other maker legitimately copies the design and sell a competent produce for 1/10th price, what's the buyer of the original product got to complain about? That he got sucker or ripped off? He should suck it up.
I think there are separate issues at work. Certainly, when patents expire the technology is fair game and that's a good thing. Chinese interests, of course, are notorious for stealing IP, but that's a different issue. The broader point for me is that when I can make a clear choice, I won't buy a Chinese product because I'd rather not support the Chinese system which is oppressive and destructive. I don't get on a high horse about it because that would be quite hypocritical-I have an iphone and I doubt any of us could say we don't own Chinese products, but when the choice is clear and relatively painless I'll buy something else even if it costs a little more. That choice is without regard to patent status. I feel the same way about Russian products-had a chance not long ago to buy a Russian made dac that apparently is really good at an attractive price but I would not do anything that knowingly supports Putin's economy. Others see those things differently and I don't think there is any moral superiority on one side or the other-its just a personal preference in how I choose to spend my money. The IP issue, for me, is not the most important issue.
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
You made some good points.
When a company has the intent to copy the look, colors, and layout with the intent to bleed off the hard work of another company - while not coming up with their own gear, I think is shady. Notice I didn't say illegal.
This has nothing to do with medicines. With medicines it is a proprietary formula that often on average takes 11 years to create/get approval and over $1 billion in research and approval costs (I worked in the health are industry) and during the patent period the company makes billions of dollars. Then when the generic comes out often times they still don't work exactly as well as the original.
In hifi, we are talking about small operations many of which barely turn a profit. There is no need for other companies to copy their design in hopes of simply getting cheap buyers who support the harm to to legit hifi audio industry.
There is no need for them to copy the colors, look, usually similar names, and claim same layout OTHER THAN to bleed off the work of someone else with the knowledge of the harm it will cause.
This is very much the way of the Chinese business culture. They are - as I deal with them for 20 years - culturally extremely untrustworthy. Unlike the Japanese in comparison who are very trustworthy.
I do not tie this in with an iPhone which is nothing similar to this situation.
As you, I choose not to buy Chinese products if offered other options, but very often other options simply do not exist. I have what I consider to be good and valid reasons for my position on the matter (that I will not go into here) so it bothers me when I don’t discover that something is made in China until it shows up at my door. I’m not talking about packets of screws and nuts at the hardware store or a Popeil pocket fisherman - I’m talking about purchases costing thousands of dollars (and weighing hundreds of pounds) showing up with “Made in China” emblazoned on the carton, such as my SVS SB-4000 subs or my JBL 3800i speakers. Both are excellent products that I like very much, but I wouldn’t have bought them had I known where they were made beforehand. It seems to me that the country of origin of any such products should be clearly stated so that people can be fully informed before pulling the trigger on an item. Had I thought about it, I suppose I could have asked, but that didn’t occur to me given the shipping weight. All are 100 lbs or close to it, so sending them back just because they were made in China isn’t an option.
Feanor
Active member
- Thread Author
- #90
China is a place of contradiction: some things good, others very bad.
The CCP government has certainly raise the standard of living there for most enormously since the end of the Mao era. also in the good side:
- China is the leader in EV production and intends to dominate the world market, at least outside the USA and Europe
- China is the leader solar panel production
- Despite being still highly reliant on coal, China is leading the way in renewable energy introduction.
- China has built incredible highways and "bullet train" facilties
- China has a thriving small business sector, though large-scale business is closely controlled by the gov't and CCP.
OTOH, China is an extreme surveillance totalitarian dictatorship. Also,
- China's domestic economy is in poor shape on account of gov't misdirections and the lack of consumer confidence
- China's real estate boom is long over; it boomed at first because (a) developers received various subsidies from all levels of gov't , (central, provincial, local), and (b) because ordinary Chinese are big savers but weren't premitted to invest abroad; they had little confidence in their stackmarket so chose to invest "safely" in real estate. Result was a ridiculous over-supply of apartments, etc. Lots of Chinese lost a lot of their investment & savings
- Consequent to this real estate bust, the gov't decide to forget about a consumer-lead economy and double-down on the old export-lead approach
- Youth unemployment is very high. Ironically it college-educated young people who are having the hardest time; the economy needs tradesmen and manual workers, thus would-be white collar workers languish.
- The Chinese population is rapidly aging with a potential shortage of workers looming -- one reason for the gov'ts emphsis on robotics.
Kingrex
Well-known member
I bought Craft floors for my house. All this and that Canada product. When it showed up, Made In China. I was mad. I would not have bought it if I knew that.
I have never bought a China made amp. If I want a Cary, they are inexpensive on the used market. Why buy China? I had a Dartzeel. It was good. I sold it. No need to buy another. The Clone I wanted was $7000. Instead, I bought a used Musical Fidelity A3cr. Bummed I did. Not as bummed as if I had spent $7000.
I am interested in a multi channel amp. Will probably get a Primare 8 channel. Its made in china like so much else. Just is what it is.
If China EV were available in the US, I would be confused. I love the Tesla self drive tech. But the interior suck. The China EV have over the top luxery (Supposedly). Never seen one in person.
I have never bought a China made amp. If I want a Cary, they are inexpensive on the used market. Why buy China? I had a Dartzeel. It was good. I sold it. No need to buy another. The Clone I wanted was $7000. Instead, I bought a used Musical Fidelity A3cr. Bummed I did. Not as bummed as if I had spent $7000.
I am interested in a multi channel amp. Will probably get a Primare 8 channel. Its made in china like so much else. Just is what it is.
If China EV were available in the US, I would be confused. I love the Tesla self drive tech. But the interior suck. The China EV have over the top luxery (Supposedly). Never seen one in person.
Mr Peabody
Well-known member
I've not looked into where each were made Audeze and Dan Clark are two I liked as well as Hifiman. I'm not sure the entry price Yamaha was also impressive.
I've had that experience. Several years ago I bought a Michi S5 amp that was in my system for a while-its still here with the orphans. I think its a great product-performs flawlessly, looks good, built good, crack the chassis and you can see superb workmanship. When i was looking for replacements I auditioned gear at more than twice the price that didn't beat it. I just assumed (we know how that works) it was made in Japan and I discovered on delivery that its designed in the UK and Japan but made in China. I'm a little more careful about checking now and I wouldn't have bought it had I known. But in terms of quality and price/performance ratio its an A in my opinion. Frankly, I think some of the Chinese stuff is junk, but that's building to a low price point for people in that market. OTOH, they can build superb gear when that's the goal. I hope someday the Chinese people experience freedom although if that genius and work ethic was truly freed from an autocratic regime it would be hard to keep up.
Mr Peabody
Well-known member
SVS is a U.S. company. I didn't realize they began making their products in China. That would be similar to Apple. Technically JBL is U.S. as well being under Harman, their products are made in several countries. I guess that's why the HDI series are such over achievers in their price range. I heard 3800's driven by a Hegel 590 and they were impressive.
Mr Peabody
Well-known member
Also, why they now allow families to have more than one child.
It should be noted that China didn't really begin to grow until about 1978 when they opened their trade to the rest of the world. Remarkable to see where they are now. Of course, with open markets and cheap labor you can understand how things took off.
After the Chinese civil war KMT and supporters moved to Taiwan. With help from the U.S. their economy took more of an upward take off. China had Russian support but Mao nearly destroyed the country IMO.
Shadowfax
Well-known member
When do the Dan D’Agostino Patents run out 
RepublicOfTexas69
Active member
Patent Types and Durations
- Utility Patents: Last for 20 years from the earliest non-provisional filing date. These cover new processes, machines, and functional inventions. [1, 2, 3]
Important Rules That Affect the Timeline
- Filing Date vs. Grant Date: Utility and plant patent terms start counting from the filing date (not when the patent is approved), meaning time spent waiting for approval reduces active protection time. Design patents count from the grant date. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
- Maintenance Fees: Utility patents require periodic maintenance fees paid to the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO). Missing these deadlines causes the patent to expire early. [1, 2]
- Adjustments: The USPTO can extend the 20-year term if the agency causes significant administrative delays during the review process. [1]
If you're working on an invention, let me know:
- What type of invention you have (utility, design, or plant)
- If you have already filed a provisional or non-provisional application
I suspect you are right-no question about the capacity of the Chinese people. Humans are not fungible commodities, however, and that's what troubles me.
ggdudeabides
Active member
Agreed sir and as it certainly applies to the specfic thread topic. This has nothing to do with an expired patent. Why folks think it is OK to use the EXACT model number and name of a small, boutique audio company and use their reputation and hard earned respect to market and sell a product and does not think that is outright theft is beyond me. Maybe someone with a different moral structure and fairness than I can explain that. Finally, please provide examples ANY OTHER PRODUCT (excluding audio) where this practice has been exploited. BTW, very interesting and timely discussion.
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ggdudeabides
Active member
This has nothing to do with a patent right. That is a gross oversimplification of a far more serious and complex infringement issue. It is about stealing a small, boutique, hard earned reputation to market and sell product. And any reasonable, intelligent person should realize that.
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