MSB Select II arrival

[wklie]

If you use Roon, you can try using Roon DSP Engine to perform upsampling for Redbook to DSD with 7th order CLANS and enable Parallelize Sigma-Delta Modulator. Watch the Roon Signal Path processing speed - if it drops below 1.3 you need to use a lower rate of DSD or upgrade your PC to a faster CPU.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

If you use Roon, you can try using Roon DSP Engine to perform upsampling for Redbook to DSD with 7th order CLANS and enable Parallelize Sigma-Delta Modulator. Watch the Roon Signal Path processing speed - if it drops below 1.3 you need to use a lower rate of DSD or upgrade your PC to a faster CPU.

thanks for the tips.

my server is the SGM; and the team from SGM is working hard to optimize both Roon and HQ Player to be it's very best with the MSB Select II and they have made quite a few tweaks. they get into my server while I'm at work, and also are doing research back in the Netherlands on another RTR ladder dac to try and find wins.

in a few weeks MSB will have a new Ethernet renderer (optimized for Roon and MQA) for me to try with the Select II and I will be comparing it to the SGM server over USB to see which one I will keep.

so the SGM team is plenty motivated to provide the best possible performance.

likely the SGM team is aware of your suggestions and it's possible I'm listening to them now; but I really don't know. I will pass your suggestions on to them in any case. and again thanks.

I hope that all makes sense.

oh, and not likely I need a faster processor.

 

[Priaptor]

Congratulations Mike and Priaptor! I have never heard the Select II, but given what I have read, I can't imagine it being anything less than "godly" or at the supreme tier of digital playback (take your pick).

Priaptor (or Mike if you have this experience): I would be very interested in your thoughts on what areas and how it beats the MSB Diamond DAC V (since you are going from one to the other).

Also (either Mike or Priaptor), do you know if MSB is going to offer some type of upgrade to either the new "Reference DAC" of the Select II for its Diamond DAC V owners? I figured I would ask since you might know even though I should just fire off a mail to MSB.

Again, congratulations guys and I am sure the unit will bring you years of happiness and outstanding music!

My understanding is the upgrade offer is over. That notwithstanding I'm sure you could still get a great price for your V. My V had the Femto 77 clock so it is a difficult comparison as some of the differences is going from the 77-->33.

I have Nola Concert Grand Golds with Ref10 and GS150 amp with Valhalla V2 wiring.

For me, I'm finding the pre stage of the Select II so good that my preference, at least at this time, is to go direct into the GS150. I have owned most of the ARC amps and while Carl actually sounded the Concert Grands with the REF75 this is the best I have ever heard these speakers. My trial with SS was with the Constellation Centaur which really sucked although sounded pretty good on the Magico Q1 I also had at th time. However my then Ref250 sucked on the Q1 relative to the Centaur. In any case the Q1/Centaur wasn't my taste which was going to be for a second system in my vacation home so I sold it. Just including some history so you have an idea of my likes if you have heard any of this stuff. I have been using MSB Diamond Plus IV then V for the last 4 years. Loved both.

The Select II is a quantum leap relative to the V. Incredibly coherent with a soundstage I never thought could improve while incredibly accurate timbre. The ability to separate the subtle cues of space around each performer regardless of music type is absolutely astounding; something I have never heard while still maintaining an amazing sense of coherence. There are some components that stress a amazing detail in a limited spectrum to give the sense of resolution but at the expense of coherence of the whole. My experience with the Select I have never had before. While I took delivery of mine a day before Mike I have been away the last week and am still in somewhat of a setup phase but am loving what I'm hearing. I have several sources I want to try including the new renderer when available but am >90% sure the Ref10 is going to be sold and I will be going direct. Just want to do some more comparisons.

It's a lot of money but an amazing piece

 

[wklie]

it's possible I'm listening to them now; but I really don't know.

To know whether you're hearing Roon DSP Engine or HQPlayer or bit perfect, check the signal path:
https://kb.roonlabs.com/Signal_Path

 

[laynesaddiction]

The Select II is a quantum leap relative to the V. Incredibly coherent with a soundstage I never thought could improve while incredibly accurate timbre. The ability to separate the subtle cues of space around each performer regardless of music type is absolutely astounding; something I have never heard while still maintaining an amazing sense of coherence. There are some components that stress a amazing detail in a limited spectrum to give the sense of resolution but at the expense of coherence of the whole. My experience with the Select I have never had before. While I took delivery of mine a day before Mike I have been away the last week and am still in somewhat of a setup phase but am loving what I'm hearing. I have several sources I want to try including the new renderer when available but am >90% sure the Ref10 is going to be sold and I will be going direct. Just want to do some more comparisons.

It's a lot of money but an amazing piece

Thank you for your detailed reply. I will be also interested in your review/opinion of the renderer. While we currently do not have the MSB Renderer or the Quad DSD USB board (we have the older 2xDSD board), we found (to our ears) that there is a serious difference in running a variety of ways with the DAC V stack. Specifically, there are a bunch of ways and configurations to compare including:

- USB stick connected to the front of the UMT+
- USB connection from a laptop/PC connected directly to the back DAC USB port (in our case using the older 2xDSD USB plug-in board)
- Wired Ethernet to the UMT+, UMT+ via I2S (or S/PDIF or TOSLINK or etc.) to DAC
- Wireless Ethernet (strong signal) via the UMT+
- Wireless Ethernet (weaker signal) via the UMT+
- Spinning discs via UMT+ transport with the transport connect I2S to the DAC V
- Etc. Etc. Etc.

Again, each of these sound different to our ears.

I am assuming that if we had the new USB 4xDSD board or the renderer, we would find them to be different sounding than the others too. So, when you have your thought together on the renderer, please share as I would really like to know your thoughts using that board vs. the USB 4xDSD.

Thank you again for your reply.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Please see my PM for the response to your offer. It took me less time than one tick of your Femto 33 to determine my answer. ;-)

Anthony,

it was my great pleasure hosting you and your wife last night to hear the Select II. thank you for introducing me to so much new music, and I enjoyed your sharing your knowledge and passion for that music. I look forward to doing it again.....and we can do some tape.

cheers,

Mike

 

[Mike Lavigne]

and it gets even better.....

today I received, in a care package, a loaner USB cable; the Light Harmonic Lightspeed USB Cable to try in place of the generic USB.

just inserted said cable....

this is the 'red one' with the dual parallel cables and the plastic spacers (live pic in system to follow when I can pry my ears away from the music).

stone cold, after an 8000 mile plane ride in last few few days, out of the box it is 'objectively'......more vivid, with slightly lower noise, and has subtly better leading edge definition and delicacy, and more micro detail and texture. subjectively it 'pops' more, it embraces you more emotionally and it draws you in with greater musical touch. there is better flow and musical cohesion. it's more real. and plays to the strengths of my system.

spooky vocals so far.

not sure the break-in/warm up/settle in of this cable.

 

[cmarin]

and it gets even better.....

today I received, in a care package, a loaner USB cable; the Light Harmonic Lightspeed USB Cable to try in place of the generic USB.

just inserted said cable....

this is the 'red one' with the dual parallel cables and the plastic spacers (live pic in system to follow when I can pry my ears away from the music).

stone cold, after an 8000 mile plane ride in last few few days, out of the box it is 'objectively'......more vivid, with slightly lower noise, and has subtly better leading edge definition and delicacy, and more micro detail and texture. subjectively it 'pops' more, it embraces you more emotionally and it draws you in with greater musical touch. there is better flow and musical cohesion. it's more real. and plays to the strengths of my system.

spooky vocals so far.

not sure the break-in/warm up/settle in of this cable.

The Light Harmonic Lightspeed USB Cable with the two parallel red cables has been my favorite cable for a while now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Stereophonic]

Mike.
It is your first USB cable experience?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike.
It is your first USB cable experience?

no. I played around a over a year ago and liked the Totaldac at that time on the Trinity dac and Golden Gate.

and then last fall and this spring I tried a number of Sablon USB's and liked them on the GG, Aqua Formula and Nagra HD.

but I've not really done the big deep dive into USB cables. my intention was after I determine whether I'm going with a USB server or the new Ethernet renderer from MSB I will then optimize the cables for either way. but I was sent this cable to try in the meantime which then opens up this question.

I was always 'in play' on changing dacs so I wanted to wait until that part was done to deal with cables.

that part is definitely done. very done!

 

[a.wayne]

it arrived yesterday, and I've listened for 6-7 hours so far.

I removed the rubber stock footers from below the power supply and am using BDR cones on top of the Symposium Svelt Shelf. the dac is using the rubber stock footers into the detents in the case of the power supply.....for my initial listening.

right now using a generic USB cable and an Absolute Fidelity power cord with Furutech NCF plugs. settings on the SGM are 'bit-perfect' through HQ Player.

just how good is the MSB Select dac?

I'm not really ready to answer that. there is quite a bit of investigation needed to go there. but I will say that the musical experience of every track I've listened to in the last 5 and 1/2 hours is significantly improved over any previous digital experience.

and it's not so much that it sounds better, but in the ways it sounds better that so far is impressive. there is just a sense of easy musical expression without stress, and with such natural speed, separation, clarity and command. nothing forced or confused. like other digital is a bit constipated and filtered. yet the flow is hypnotic. make your audio checklist and check every box. it does it all.

and my body feels like 'all-analog'. not 5+ hours of digital.

so I'm explaining my emotional and physical reaction to an extended session with the MSB Select II. I'm not assigning any rank or attribute.....or trying to describe it's sound.

I've heard nothing so far that would limit my opinion of this product......but don't have the complete picture.....yet.

and no doubt I've not yet heard the best of the Select II. there are a number of areas where the performance should improve to some degree going forward. I will say it seems to fit right into my system and my expectations of a synergy with my system appear to be right on.

Mike, what is the unit on the ground to the left of your rack .... ?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, what is the unit on the ground to the left of your rack .... ?

that is the SGM music server. it's the most robust CPU I've seen. it's over 60 pounds due to it's massive casework and heat sinking to allow for over-the-top computation power and fan less operation.

 

[nicoludio]

no. I played around a over a year ago and liked the Totaldac at that time on the Trinity dac and Golden Gate.

and then last fall and this spring I tried a number of Sablon USB's and liked them on the GG, Aqua Formula and Nagra HD.

...

Am curious as to how the Curious USB compares with the Sablon USB. Thanks.

 

[Stereophonic]

no. I played around a over a year ago and liked the Totaldac at that time on the Trinity dac and Golden Gate.

and then last fall and this spring I tried a number of Sablon USB's and liked them on the GG, Aqua Formula and Nagra HD.

but I've not really done the big deep dive into USB cables. my intention was after I determine whether I'm going with a USB server or the new Ethernet renderer from MSB I will then optimize the cables for either way. but I was sent this cable to try in the meantime which then opens up this question.

I was always 'in play' on changing dacs so I wanted to wait until that part was done to deal with cables.

that part is definitely done. very done!

Hi Mike.
I'm very glad you finished your dac research.
With the correct USB cable or the new MSB renderer it only has to get better.
Even it can, as great as the Dartzeel is, get better it too.
It is a master piece !!!!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

duplicate post

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mono Powerbases arrive....

Mono Powerbases arrived last Saturday. originally I had only one powerbase which is the standard configuration for the Select II. an option is to have 2 separate powerbase boxes, one for the digital circuits and one for the analog circuits. I ordered this earlier in the month, they built the additional power base complete, and the built the circuits for the second one, then when that was ready I shipped my standard powerbase to the factory and they installed those new circuits and I got it back 3 days later. the only gotcha to the quick turnaround was the freight for 70 pounds to the factory and 140 pounds back both overnight. ouch!!!

but oh, the sound I'm hearing!!!

that morning I had taken my Adona rack apart to investigate whether I could somehow have a separate shelf for each power supply, which is ideal. but I just don't have the height to do that considering my Herzan and dart preamp. but having the tt off and top shelf removed it was easy to just lower the heavy power supplies onto the shelf instead of trying to slip those into the tight space. but it did take awhile to reassemble the system before I could listen.

so there are a few different things I'm doing in terms of set up compared to how it was with only one power supply. before I had the second power supply under the dac and stacked on top of the Herzan and dart pre with a Symposium Svelte Shelf between the pre and the power supply. now it's just the Select II dac atop the Herzan/dart pre/Symposium/BDR cones. then on the upper Adona shelf I have -6- A10 U8 decoupling footers (due to 90 pound total for the 2 powerbases) under the bottom powerbase, then the upper powerbase uses the stock rubber footers into the recesses in the bottom powerbase. I've jumped the top powerbase to the bottom one for grounding, both then to the Tara GME w/HFX IC's and the Tripoint Troy Sig for chassis, and the Entreq grounded to the RCA inputs on the dac.

my opinion is that part of what I'm hearing is improved decoupling performance with both the dac and powerbases.

and I get into all that system set-up stuff because I was absolutely stunned by what I'd been hearing from the addition of the Mono Powerbases. and trying to wrap my head around it I have a hard time thinking it's all the power supplies. my sense is that while the new dual powerbases get most of the credit, it's likely not that simple. we are operating at such a high level of information that everything matters.

what was i hearing? this is a quantum leap. I'm going to avoid the whole vinyl question for now as I have to be careful until I actually A/B recordings, but I do think I'm now at a spot where it makes sense to do that.

that out of the way, I'd say this step up is much more wide ranging in it's implications than I ever would have expected. besides clearly (not subtly) better everywhere, I'd say 'commanding'.....'authoritative'....'grounded/sure-footed'......'bigger/bolder'. before I might say that some tubed dacs have more bloom and in some ways more tonal density. not anymore. the dual powerbases simply take things to a different dimension of performance in my system. listening to familiar tracks there is much more texture and micro-dynamics. the word real and life-like hit me everywhere. the amount of projected musical energy is just in a whole different place from any digital I have heard. the music floats above yet is grounded in power. super holographic.

the bass is better in every way, more articulation and texture, more tonally rich, goes deeper and with more slam and weight. the nuance and delicacy is a few degrees better which results in clearly more ease and flow. on every familiar recording there are passages where my previous reference is now revealed to have had distortion, and now it's removed. this part really blows my mind.

the noise floor is lower, I'm hearing so much more ambience and sense of dimensionality and feelings of openness and a direct connection to the event, and so much delicate life like detail and the feeling the air is alive.

I will try my best to list some recordings and get into details about them. that is not an easy thing for me, but I will do my best.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Ilia Itin, Debussy, Preludes, quad dsd, Wave Kinetics Music

http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/1...des_Book_1-DSD_Quad_Rate_112MHz256fs_Download

I've been listening to this native Quad dsd (4xdsd) solo piano recording. you can also get it at 2xdsd and single dsd (and.....they also recorded a 1/2" 30ips tape master off the same mic feed too, 8 reels worth for 'later'). over the last 2 years I've used this amazing recording as a deep look into the musical picture. it's mesmerizing and beautiful as music, but it's depth of information, harmonic and dynamic shading is without peer in my experience. it's a close mic'd concert grand piano played at full tilt boggie. I've played it hundreds of times.

and what I'm hearing is game changing in depth of textural detail. this is as much like tape to my ears, as vinyl. and the way it injects air and floating localized energy into the notes is remarkable. you hear the note played and then it just opens up more than you've yet heard it, but then it keeps opening more and more, then you think it's done and it just goes deeper.

at shows when I heard the MSB Select II (with mono powerbases) demos, I heard these same types of things to a much less degree, more of a hint, or tease. the media and systems were not as capable. I always wondered what this dac might do if you took the restrictors off of it. or even played the highest resolution dynamic music. this recording demonstrates it so clearly. the musical focus and granular delicacy are completely right as 'live', yet they fully hang in there on the most robust crescendos. and on my system you 'feel' this music physically. the piano is in the room as an instrument, it's mass is evident. you feel it's power and command of the room.

you keep expecting that the texture and delicacy will congeal on the peaks, but it just sails through those moments with never a whimper or lost step. really incredible, that was always the difference with the best vinyl or tape, it held together.

I'm still struggling with my attempts to find words to describe what my ears are hearing, and I hope that I got my intentions across.

---

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I've been playing around with the Select II over the last week or so, trying to find the upper limits of what it can do.

a week ago I tried my short 1.25m 'zeel' BNC interconnect substituting for the 'uber' expensive Tara Labs GME w/HFX rca's......between the Select II and the dart pre. i'm using rca->BNC adapters on the ends to work with the RCA outputs on the Select II. and.....I liked it a little bit better, and that's eliminating the grounding advantage of the $31k list price Tara, and dealing with a less than optimized 75 ohm output of the RCA outputs. just that little bit more 'there' and immediate.

then I made the big jump, removing the dart pre and going direct from the Select II to the dart monos with the 8m Evolution Acoustics 'zeel' BNC's (with adapters). i liked this a lot......and listened this way for a week. went back and forth once. the 'direct' was a bit more open and spacious, with the dart pre in there was a bit more meat and tighter soundstage. half way through i realized i had forgot to move the Tripoint Thor SE Master Reference Grounding cable from the dart pre to the Select II when i went direct. this added quite a bit of dimensionality and coherence to the music when i used it on the Select II going direct.

i was on the fence on this move, so yesterday i asked my local friend jazdoc to come over and lend his ears to the question. his take was similar to mine, but his feeling was that the dart pre added something more essential than what it gave up when removed. his sonic compass and mine are not the same, so i was not surprised with his perspective. he felt that the additional high frequency energy (my term is more open) of going direct would get old after awhile.

then he had a suggestion which turned out to be the right answer. use the dart pre, but leave the Tripoint Thor SE Master Reference Grounding cable on the Select II instead of switching it to the dart pre. this took things to another level altogether. more dimensional, coherent, and greater ease. quite a profound step forward.

thank you jazdoc, you are my hero. i'm loving this step forward.

so today i knew what i had to do.......and called Miguel Alverez of Tripoint in South Florida (his mind was focused on Irma headed his way) and was lucky that he happened to have a 1 meter Thor SE Master Reference Grounding cable he could send me. it will be here tomorrow afternoon. both the dart pre and the Select II will be able to use the Thor SE MR level cable.

best wishes to Miguel and all those in Florida in the path of Irma.

next; i need to report back to MSB that we need to modify an RCA output module with the 50 ohm BNC's so i get 100% of the benefit of that approach......to fully synergize with the dart pre.

i will report what i hear with the new cable. but things are really sounding amazing.

 

[Alpinist]

I've been playing around with the Select II over the last week or so, trying to find the upper limits of what it can do.

a week ago I tried my short 1.25m 'zeel' BNC interconnect substituting for the 'uber' expensive Tara Labs GME w/HFX rca's......between the Select II and the dart pre. i'm using rca->BNC adapters on the ends to work with the RCA outputs on the Select II. and.....I liked it a little bit better, and that's eliminating the grounding advantage of the $31k list price Tara, and dealing with a less than optimized 75 ohm output of the RCA outputs. just that little bit more 'there' and immediate.

then I made the big jump, removing the dart pre and going direct from the Select II to the dart monos with the 8m Evolution Acoustics 'zeel' BNC's (with adapters). i liked this a lot......and listened this way for a week. went back and forth once. the 'direct' was a bit more open and spacious, with the dart pre in there was a bit more meat and tighter soundstage. half way through i realized i had forgot to move the Tripoint Thor SE Master Reference Grounding cable from the dart pre to the Select II when i went direct. this added quite a bit of dimensionality and coherence to the music when i used it on the Select II going direct.

i was on the fence on this move, so yesterday i asked my local friend jazdoc to come over and lend his ears to the question. his take was similar to mine, but his feeling was that the dart pre added something more essential than what it gave up when removed. his sonic compass and mine are not the same, so i was not surprised with his perspective. he felt that the additional high frequency energy (my term is more open) of going direct would get old after awhile.

then he had a suggestion which turned out to be the right answer. use the dart pre, but leave the Tripoint Thor SE Master Reference Grounding cable on the Select II instead of switching it to the dart pre. this took things to another level altogether. more dimensional, coherent, and greater ease. quite a profound step forward.

thank you jazdoc, you are my hero. i'm loving this step forward.

so today i knew what i had to do.......and called Miguel Alverez of Tripoint in South Florida (his mind was focused on Irma headed his way) and was lucky that he happened to have a 1 meter Thor SE Master Reference Grounding cable he could send me. it will be here tomorrow afternoon. both the dart pre and the Select II will be able to use the Thor SE MR level cable.

best wishes to Miguel and all those in Florida in the path of Irma.

next; i need to report back to MSB that we need to modify an RCA output module with the 50 ohm BNC's so i get 100% of the benefit of that approach......to fully synergize with the dart pre.

i will report what i hear with the new cable. but things are really sounding amazing.

Very interesting discoveries, Mike. Did you consider running balanced XLR connections from the MSB Select II DAC directly to your Dartzeel 458 monoblocks? With this approach you could maximize the performance of the MSB Select II DAC with a direct balanced connection to the amplifiers (as MSB recommends), while retaining your single ended connections from your other sources to your preamp to your amps. This is what I would be experimenting with if I was in your shoes.

Maybe our paths will cross at RMAF this year. I will be attending and it would be terrific to get to meet you in person!

Best,
Ken

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Very interesting discoveries, Mike. Did you consider running balanced XLR connections from the MSB Select II DAC directly to your Dartzeel 458 monoblocks? With this approach you could maximize the performance of the MSB Select II DAC with a direct balanced run to the amplifiers (as MSB recommends), while retaining your single ended connections from your other sources to your preamp and then to your amps. This is what I would be trying if I was in your shoes.

Maybe our paths will cross at RMAF this year. I will be attending and it would be terrific to get to meet you in person!

Best,
Ken

hi Ken,

i'll be at RMAF Friday and Saturday, leaving Sat pm. likewise enjoy meeting you in person. I will look for you (i'll be on the way to the airport Saturday night).

when I first got the Select II in June, I had both the RCA and XLR output modules to compare. I preferred the performance of the RCA modules in my system. talking to Vince of MSB he felt there was no performance difference between the two types and it was system specific as to preference. it's part of the beauty of the Select II that it's output is so robust that the normal advantage of XLR is not evident. once you add the second power supply that is even more the case.

further; MSB is intrigued by the whole 50 ohm 'zeel' interface approach of darTZeel as it plays to MSB's dart-like less is more design approach. and the dart mono blocks are optimized with the 50 ohm 'zeel' interface. it's simply a better interface than RCA or XLR. so I think MSB will be doing a 50 ohm BNC module. the modularity of the Select II (and Reference dac) allows for this sort of future-proofing and open minded system synergy accommodation that is very cool stuff.

not saying everyone agrees with this direction, but my ears tell me it's right. and over time, I've always seemed to prefer the performance of RCA to XLR for whatever reason. there have been exceptions; the Trinity dac I had only offered XLR, and the Nagra HD dac and Aqua Formula dac both had added transformers on the XLR outputs which reduced digital noise so were better that way. OTOH I preferred the sound of the SE GG to the balanced ones I heard.