MSB Select DAC

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Norman... We will be in Munich Later in the year. Would love to do the rounds there. :D

No doubt the Lampizators outperforms the iFi. I'm still on the sidelines and content to peddle car in the DAC world for now.

My McIntosh MCD1100 is no slouch in the PCM world either but this goes to show just how quickly DAC technology has been moving along in the past few years. I hope McIntosh is more selective with its DAC product positioning in the future.

Back to this thread, I couldn't contemplate spend upwards of $100K on a DAC or a digital stack given the rate of depreciation and obsolescence.
 
$90K is nuts for a DAC but for those arguing against it on the basis of obsolescence (I.e., technology changing so fast, it doesn't make sense to spend that much if the DAC is going to become a door stop in 2/3 years), the $90K at MSB will buy you a lifetime of updates (both software and hardware) as the platform is improved upon so you could argue it would be the last DAC you would need to buy since it will be constantly updated to MSB's latest thinking, presuming you like the MSB house sound and that house sound is maintained but improved upon over the course of the ensuing updates, which is unlike what I have read with the PS Audio software updates where the SQ seemed to shift from one update to the next. Not sure you will get that lifetime update protection with the Porsche :D. In fact, I would wager the bills start racking up pretty quickly on maintenance and repairs (post warranty period), pretty quickly with the Porsche :D

I'm not in anyway arguing for the MSB DAC at this price point but I'm just sayin...:D
 
Steve said:
Porsche, yes please! :safe:

This is is exactly the issue I have with DACs in general. Like computers, subject to Moore's Law and huge depreciation. For less than $2K on a complete iFi iDSD/iTube/iUSB rig which is around the spend on a good computer, I still have a big stiffy.
Click to expand...

I bought the Playback Designs MPS-5 dac-transport in 2006. it was $15k list price back then. it's dac was software upgradable. it was at the top of the heap then, and has continued to be at or near the top of dacs....particularly on the dsd side of things. it is now on it's 25th software release.

finally after 9 years, for the last 6 months or so I've been 'looking' at alternatives. there are a few candidates but still the performance difference is not very much. the MPS-5 still sounds magnificent 9 years later. and it still commands value as a used piece.

so a dac does not need to be a 24 or 36 month proposition if carefully purchased.
 
cmalak said:
$90K is nuts for a DAC but for those arguing against it on the basis of obsolescence (I.e., technology changing so fast, it doesn't make sense to spend that much if the DAC is going to become a door stop in 2/3 years), the $90K at MSB will buy you a lifetime of updates (both software and hardware) as the platform is improved upon so you could argue it would be the last DAC you would need to buy since it will be constantly updated to MSB's latest thinking, presuming you like the MSB house sound and that house sound is maintained but improved upon over the course of the ensuing updates, which is unlike what I have read with the PS Audio software updates where the SQ seemed to shift from one update to the next. Not sure you will get that lifetime update protection with the Porsche :D. In fact, I would wager the bills start racking up pretty quickly on maintenance and repairs (post warranty period), pretty quickly with the Porsche :D

I'm not in anyway arguing for the MSB DAC at this price point but I'm just sayin...:D
Click to expand...


It's all a measure of personal value. It occurs to me that some of these comments would makes those whom posses a marginal economic condition which makes this dac a no brainer are made to feel some how out of line. That's all good if thats what we want here. Sometimes those individuals can bring a great deal of value to audio forums.
 
Mike Lavigne said:
I bought the Playback Designs MPS-5 dac-transport in 2006. it was $15k list price back then. it's dac was software upgradable. it was at the top of the heap then, and has continued to be at or near the top of dacs....particularly on the dsd side of things. it is now on it's 25th software release.

finally after 9 years, for the last 6 months or so I've been 'looking' at alternatives. there are a few candidates but still the performance difference is not very much. the MPS-5 still sounds magnificent 9 years later. and it still commands value as a used piece.

so a dac does not need to be a 24 or 36 month proposition if carefully purchased.
Click to expand...

I was just talking to Andreas the other day and while he is coming with an MPS-3 replacement, he regularly has his team of "Golden Ears" compare the MPS-5 to the field and last time, while he was thinking it might be time for new hardware, the determination by the group was there was no reason to do so. He has nothing coming to replace the unit! Pretty impressive. What he does with his fpga's and firmware updates is incredible. If the MPD-5 did as good of job with PCM as MSB it might be on my list.
 
FlexibleAudio said:
I was just talking to Andreas the other day and while he is coming with an MPS-3 replacement, he regularly has his team of "Golden Ears" compare the MPS-5 to the field and last time, while he was thinking it might be time for new hardware, the determination by the group was there was no reason to do so. He has nothing coming to replace the unit! Pretty impressive. What he does with his fpga's and firmware updates is incredible. If the MPD-5 did as good of job with PCM as MSB it might be on my list.
Click to expand...

what other SOTA dac/transport is still a current model 9 years later (with only free software upgrades)?

none.

that is value received to a buyer.

it's not chopped liver with PCM either. I'm listening to a wonderful sounding 176/24 HRx Reference Recording of Elger (HR-129) off my server right now. and I listen to lots of superb sounding redbook off my server all the time. I agree that there are better dacs for PCM at higher price points.
 
Steve said:
Norman... We will be in Munich Later in the year. Would love to do the rounds there. :D

No doubt the Lampizators outperforms the iFi. I'm still on the sidelines and content to peddle car in the DAC world for now.

My McIntosh MCD1100 is no slouch in the PCM world either but this goes to show just how quickly DAC technology has been moving along in the past few years. I hope McIntosh is more selective with its DAC product positioning in the future.

Back to this thread, I couldn't contemplate spend upwards of $100K on a DAC or a digital stack given the rate of depreciation and obsolescence.
Click to expand...
Super! Link me closer to the date and I can give you a few tips based on my limited experience. The Welt and Museum are must go, and if you like Tech history, the Deutches Museum as well…the largest of its kind in the world they say. Some good restaurants near Odeansplatz and food in Germany seems to be the cheapest in all Europe, except maybe for Spain. Salzburg has a music festival on until late August and its 100 mins drive from South Munich. You need a highway sticker though…$9 for 10 days.

Personally, I would never contemplate $100K for ANY component, even if funds were not a problem. For $100K, you could fly around the world and see every concert live that tickled your fancy.
 
FlexibleAudio said:
Has anyone heard a Dac V Diamond yet???
Click to expand...

Me. Have one playing right now. It's considerably better and more organic than the MSB DAC IV I had (non-Plus model, so many generations old).

My old DAC IV was the best DAC I had heard at that point. Nothing improved on it, until I heard the SELECT, which was in a different galaxy. And now the DAC V, which is not better than the SELECT, of course, but gives some of the magic. I'm curious to hear the Signature DAC V now, and see how it compares to the Diamond...
 
Mike Lavigne said:
what other SOTA dac/transport is still a current model 9 years later (with only free software upgrades)?

none.

that is value received to a buyer.

it's not chopped liver with PCM either. I'm listening to a wonderful sounding 176/24 HRx Reference Recording of Elger (HR-129) off my server right now. and I listen to lots of superb sounding redbook off my server all the time. I agree that there are marginally better dacs for PCM at higher price points.
Click to expand...

Mike,

No question it's PCM is very good, I didn't mean to imply otherwise I just prefer the r2r design there. It's hard to conceive of a better 9 year value in the sota arena than what PBD has done.
 
asiufy said:
Me. Have one playing right now. It's considerably better and more organic than the MSB DAC IV I had (non-Plus model, so many generations old).

My old DAC IV was the best DAC I had heard at that point. Nothing improved on it, until I heard the SELECT, which was in a different galaxy. And now the DAC V, which is not better than the SELECT, of course, but gives some of the magic. I'm curious to hear the Signature DAC V now, and see how it compares to the Diamond...
Click to expand...

Thanks very much. May I ask what input you are using (Renderer, Quad USB, other)?? Your clock? Also, a little more perspective on the improvements would be awesome!
 
Sure. The unit we have came with I2S only (as well as Coax, Toslink, AES/EBU, all standard). Since we have the UMT Plus transport (and a Diamond Power Base), that's what we used at first, with great results.

When we did our Music Talks event a couple of weeks ago, Vince Galbo brought the Quad USB input for the DAC V, and that's what we've been using since, hooked up to an Aurender N10.

I don't think the DAC V Renderer is quite done yet, but we'll get one for sure once it's out :)

My "path" along MSB was, in order of purchase/auditions: DAC IV Signature, DAC IV Diamond, Analog DAC, SELECT, DAC V Diamond. What I've noticed is that MSB has been progressively improving its analog outputs (I've also noticed other major DAC brands doing the same). That results in a more natural sound, one that doesn't get fatiguing or too frontal at high volume levels. The DAC IV was a fantastic piece when I had it, and as I said, the best overall DAC I had heard up to that point, but it was not perfect. Its volume control, for instance, was not comparable to a full fledged preamp. MSB's goal, with its latest designs, is to replace people's preamps, and for that, they need quality analog stages and volume controls, and that's what we got with the latest batch of products, starting with the Analog DAC, and now with the SELECT.

I'd say the DAC V is smoother, yet more resolute than the DAC IV. The whole "presence" thing that sold me into the brand is still there, in spades. Materialization is big with these DACs, even with the Analog DAC. What you get, stepping up to the DAC V from the Analog, for instance, is a more precise soundstage, with instruments more clearly defined. So, for complex and big classical works, a DAC V will provide a substantial improvement over the Analog.

The fit and finish of these new units (again, starting with the Analog DAC) is much improved too, as MSB has bought CNC machines, and brought production in-house. Everything is made there now, including the spiked feet of the DACs!

I hope this helps :D

cheers,
alex
 
asiufy said:
Sure. The unit we have came with I2S only (as well as Coax, Toslink, AES/EBU, all standard). Since we have the UMT Plus transport (and a Diamond Power Base), that's what we used at first, with great results.

When we did our Music Talks event a couple of weeks ago, Vince Galbo brought the Quad USB input for the DAC V, and that's what we've been using since, hooked up to an Aurender N10.

I don't think the DAC V Renderer is quite done yet, but we'll get one for sure once it's out :)

My "path" along MSB was, in order of purchase/auditions: DAC IV Signature, DAC IV Diamond, Analog DAC, SELECT, DAC V Diamond. What I've noticed is that MSB has been progressively improving its analog outputs (I've also noticed other major DAC brands doing the same). That results in a more natural sound, one that doesn't get fatiguing or too frontal at high volume levels. The DAC IV was a fantastic piece when I had it, and as I said, the best overall DAC I had heard up to that point, but it was not perfect. Its volume control, for instance, was not comparable to a full fledged preamp. MSB's goal, with its latest designs, is to replace people's preamps, and for that, they need quality analog stages and volume controls, and that's what we got with the latest batch of products, starting with the Analog DAC, and now with the SELECT.

I'd say the DAC V is smoother, yet more resolute than the DAC IV. The whole "presence" thing that sold me into the brand is still there, in spades. Materialization is big with these DACs, even with the Analog DAC. What you get, stepping up to the DAC V from the Analog, for instance, is a more precise soundstage, with instruments more clearly defined. So, for complex and big classical works, a DAC V will provide a substantial improvement over the Analog.

The fit and finish of these new units (again, starting with the Analog DAC) is much improved too, as MSB has bought CNC machines, and brought production in-house. Everything is made there now, including the spiked feet of the DACs!

I hope this helps :D

cheers,
alex
Click to expand...

Thanks again. Can you compare the N10 to Quad USB versus UMT to I2S?
 
asiufy said:
.........What you get, stepping up to the DAC V from the Analog, for instance, is a more precise soundstage, with instruments more clearly defined. So, for complex and big classical works, a DAC V will provide a substantial improvement over the Analog.

cheers,
alex
Click to expand...

when you say above...."a DAC V will provide a substantial improvement over the Analog." are you referring to the 'MSB Analog DAC' specifically? or to analog in general?

since you capitalized 'Analog' I presume you were referring to the MSB Analog DAC. but meanings can be misconstrued. not that some might not think it does those things better than analog might do them, the question becomes; was that your meaning? and was the play on words intentional?
 
FlexibleAudio said:
Thanks again. Can you compare the N10 to Quad USB versus UMT to I2S?
Click to expand...

Sure! We actually had 3 sources, as we also had an Auralic Aries at hand.

Roughly, here's my finding:

Aries - gobs of detail, sharp decays, to the point of being unnatural to some.
Aurender - smooth, relaxed, very natural.
UMT - Like the Aurender, with a touch more bite.

Neither source embarassed itself, and played as expect, commensurable to their price point. I could live with either one, but the Aurender is just more convenient.

The Quad USB input was new once we put it in, while the I2S wasn't. So at some point, I'll do the comparisons again.
 
Mike Lavigne said:
when you say above...."a DAC V will provide a substantial improvement over the Analog." are you referring to the 'MSB Analog DAC' specifically? or to analog in general?

since you capitalized 'Analog' I presume you were referring to the MSB Analog DAC. but meanings can be misconstrued. not that some might not think it does those things better than analog might do them, the question becomes; was that your meaning? and was the play on words intentional?
Click to expand...

Hi Mike!

Yes, I meant the Analog DAC :)

But Mike, you need to audition the SELECT, or at least the DAC V. Heck, an Analog DAC will make you question your current beliefs.



alexandre
 
alexandre,

Any other news about the difference between the DAC IV Plus, the DAC IV Select and and DAC V that causes the improvements? I hear it is largely software but some hardware. Any hardware changes in addition to the software? Larry in the DAC V video below at the 1:20 mark talks about this "new technology". Any news on what it is?????



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fTJQTmMCvE
 
Talking with Larry yesterday it seems there will be a compete Select Line at some point. There will be an amp (and I believe a transport) to match the Select styling. For those who want their complete stack to be of the same design.
 
Paul,

AFAIK, the improvements in DAC V comes from better, more precise DAC modules, better analog stage/volume control, and better isolation through the use of the new Quad USB port. It uses the same "platform" as the previous DAC IV (and DAC IV SELECT).

The real leapfrog was the new platform that was designed for the new SELECT, as well as the new DAC modules, that they call "Hybrid DACs".

I can ask Larry (or Vince) and see what specifically Larry was referring by that part of the video...


cheers,
alex
 
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