MQA Discussion

[radioactive]

Just some facts and thoughts on MQA

The Sprint Trial for 6 months was a mistake which only lasted for 2-3 days because anyone anywhere could get the free 6 months (https://community.roonlabs.com/t/tidal-6-months-free-hifi-sprint-promo/20794) Further, Sprint was only pushing Tidal, not MQA to customers. All those mobile users won't be able to benefit from MQA because as of today, 6/21/2017 there are zero (0) MQA enabled phones available for purchase -- and by that I mean zero that have a full MQA hardware decoder or even a software "partial unfold". We all know the Tidal app can do a "partial unfolding", but there's no MQA partial unfolding on phones -- there's not even a "Masters" section on the tidal app for phones (iphones or iPads even!). I also don't think Sprint wanted 50,000 new users suddenly streaming Tidal Hifi -- one reason they pulled the plug on the 6 month deal. Who would want such an explosive amount of growth in bandwidth usage of their network? Who knows, maybe they had a plan to pull it off, but we'll never know now will we?

As much as I may like MQA (at times), we're going on 3 years since it was first announced on Dec 4th, 2014 (http://www.hificritic.com/blog/-meridian-launch-mqa-master-quality-authenticated-audio-format). And all we have is Tidal as the mainstream provider of MQA encoded content to primarily homes, PC's and Network Streamers and two playback devices that are "mobile playback devices" -- the Onkyo DP-X1 and Pioneer XDP-100R which are far from being phones. So what happened to MQA being a better solution to streaming for all the "bandwidth constrained mobile phone users"? Everyone now listening to MQA is connected to a hi-speed network, either via wifi or directly wired. Sure, there are other providers than Tidal, but they're not what I'd call mainstream. And how many of them are there? And then we have the paltry limited number of DAC's which is still under 15 or so. Some aren't really DAC's in the true sense, they rely on your PC/Streamer to take share the load and do the first unfold (jury's still out as to the performance so I'm not sure they can be called MQA DAC's in the true sense of Bob Stuart's intent).

I keep hearing all the 'Billy Mays' of MQA saying "but just wait, there's more! Something incredible is coming out and it's all going to be awesome" (or that it's going to go mainstream) in terms of MQA finally getting significant adoption. That hook no longer snares this fish. Sorry, but I predict a slow, ugly death for MQA -- it will be like a bad strain of staph that just won't go away.I wish I'm wrong, I like MQA, but I also don't see the kind of adoption or traction that seemingly would make it mainstream.

That would be great but listeners like some of us who would purchase a MQA DAC or just want to spend $19.99 for the first half of MQA via Tidal to get to the Masters section, well the masses with the smart phones and ear buds out number us and I really don't think the large masses are going to shell out the cash or buy a MQA device to listen to MQA. One part of the Sprint deal was to get Tidal into their subscribers hands at a huge discount. "" We're providing our customers and anyone who signs up for Sprint a complimentary six-month trial of TIDAL HiFi so they can experience all the unique and exclusive content TIDAL has to offer.” "Once the trial is complete, customers can choose to keep the Tidal HiFi access for $19.99 a month, downgrade to Tidal Premium for $9.99 a month, or unsubscribe from the service." Time will tell what their subscribers will do.

The technology is there for those manufacturers that want to have their devices certified, gaining content that supports those Sprint subscribers well that's the BIG PICTURE for all of us. The technology I want to see, is a solid MQA software solution that will support all DACS.

Right now I'm waiting on LUMIN to complete their certification's so my D1 can handle a full unfold.

 

[CPP]

Re: Just some facts and thoughts on MQA

The Sprint Trial for 6 months was a mistake which only lasted for 2-3 days because anyone anywhere could get the free 6 months (https://community.roonlabs.com/t/tidal-6-months-free-hifi-sprint-promo/20794) Further, Sprint was only pushing Tidal, not MQA to customers. All those mobile users won't be able to benefit from MQA because as of today, 6/21/2017 there are zero (0) MQA enabled phones available for purchase -- and by that I mean zero that have a full MQA hardware decoder or even a software "partial unfold". We all know the Tidal app can do a "partial unfolding", but there's no MQA partial unfolding on phones -- there's not even a "Masters" section on the tidal app for phones (iphones or iPads even!). I also don't think Sprint wanted 50,000 new users suddenly streaming Tidal Hifi -- one reason they pulled the plug on the 6 month deal. Who would want such an explosive amount of growth in bandwidth usage of their network? Who knows, maybe they had a plan to pull it off, but we'll never know now will we?

As much as I may like MQA (at times), we're going on 3 years since it was first announced on Dec 4th, 2014 (http://www.hificritic.com/blog/-meridian-launch-mqa-master-quality-authenticated-audio-format). And all we have is Tidal as the mainstream provider of MQA encoded content to primarily homes, PC's and Network Streamers and two playback devices that are "mobile playback devices" -- the Onkyo DP-X1 and Pioneer XDP-100R which are far from being phones. So what happened to MQA being a better solution to streaming for all the "bandwidth constrained mobile phone users"? Everyone now listening to MQA is connected to a hi-speed network, either via wifi or directly wired. Sure, there are other providers than Tidal, but they're not what I'd call mainstream. And how many of them are there? And then we have the paltry limited number of DAC's which is still under 15 or so. Some aren't really DAC's in the true sense, they rely on your PC/Streamer to take share the load and do the first unfold (jury's still out as to the performance so I'm not sure they can be called MQA DAC's in the true sense of Bob Stuart's intent).

I keep hearing all the 'Billy Mays' of MQA saying "but just wait, there's more! Something incredible is coming out and it's all going to be awesome" (or that it's going to go mainstream) in terms of MQA finally getting significant adoption. That hook no longer snares this fish. Sorry, but I predict a slow, ugly death for MQA -- it will be like a bad strain of staph that just won't go away.I wish I'm wrong, I like MQA, but I also don't see the kind of adoption or traction that seemingly would make it mainstream.

I really don't think Sprint even cared about MQA, its trying to get customers to sign up for cell service and give away a "freebie" service for 6 months. but people forget to read the fine print. I feel its was a big money throw away, something this company does a lot of. And Billy Mays, LOL, but wait, if you order in the next 15 minutes we will throw in another 2 months of extra data minutes.

 

[rbbert]

...Where does MQA fit into this mix? If you believe in their filters, then adding back the missing spatial cues will help.

I thought I had read that MQA (or Meridian's engineers) are making these adjustments for each recording by ear? If that is so, then how does this differ from other DSP an engineer might use?

 

[Mike]

I thought I had read that MQA (or Meridian's engineers) are making these adjustments for each recording by ear? If that is so, then how does this differ from other DSP an engineer might use?

Hmmm...that's interesting. They told me they applied proprietary "filters" they developed to fix the inherent missing spatial cues from digital recordings.

Who the hell knows? Half this MQA stuff remains a mystery.

Like I've said over and over again, if you're flipping back and forth between the redbook and MQA versions - you will be more confused than anything. But if you listen over a long period to just MQA, you may find a mental easing in the listening experience. I did.


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[CPP]

Hmmm...that's interesting. They told me they applied proprietary "filters" they developed to fix the inherent missing spatial cues from digital recordings.

Who the hell knows? Half this MQA stuff remains a mystery.

Like I've said over and over again, if you're flipping back and forth between the redbook and MQA versions - you will be more confused than anything. But if you listen over a long period to just MQA, you may find a mental easing in the listening experience. I did.


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Mental easing could very well be, mindful meditation or as they say in psycho land, Counterfactual thinking that's how I feel right now after my round of golf.

 

[Mike]

Mental easing could very well be, mindful meditation or as they say in psycho land, Counterfactual thinking that's how I feel right now after my round of golf.

Ha! Did you set a new course record?


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[CPP]

Ha! Did you set a new course record?


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LOLOLOL, I had a great game going until the 5th. then the 8th, 14th, 17th then big old slap ya in your face 18. I had developed a nice duck hook out of the blue by the time I got to 12 if that tells ya anything. Oh ps, hot humid and my dew point was off the charts.

 

[Al M.]

Re: Just some facts and thoughts on MQA

As much as I may like MQA (at times), we're going on 3 years since it was first announced on Dec 4th, 2014 (http://www.hificritic.com/blog/-meridian-launch-mqa-master-quality-authenticated-audio-format). And all we have is Tidal as the mainstream provider of MQA encoded content to primarily homes, PC's and Network Streamers and two playback devices that are "mobile playback devices" -- the Onkyo DP-X1 and Pioneer XDP-100R which are far from being phones. So what happened to MQA being a better solution to streaming for all the "bandwidth constrained mobile phone users"? Everyone now listening to MQA is connected to a hi-speed network, either via wifi or directly wired. Sure, there are other providers than Tidal, but they're not what I'd call mainstream. And how many of them are there? And then we have the paltry limited number of DAC's which is still under 15 or so. Some aren't really DAC's in the true sense, they rely on your PC/Streamer to take share the load and do the first unfold (jury's still out as to the performance so I'm not sure they can be called MQA DAC's in the true sense of Bob Stuart's intent).


I keep hearing all the 'Billy Mays' of MQA saying "but just wait, there's more! Something incredible is coming out and it's all going to be awesome" (or that it's going to go mainstream) in terms of MQA finally getting significant adoption. That hook no longer snares this fish. Sorry, but I predict a slow, ugly death for MQA -- it will be like a bad strain of staph that just won't go away.I wish I'm wrong, I like MQA, but I also don't see the kind of adoption or traction that seemingly would make it mainstream.

Yup, same story as ever. This 'special' formats go nowhere. I knew that SACD basically was also dead on arrival (there's now probably on this format less than 0.1 % of all the music available on CD), and I am glad that I never got tempted. I don't own an SACD player/transport, and I don't own a single SACD. One of the best decisions in my audiophile life, not having wasted time, money and energy on that format.

***

Here is Mike Moffat (one of the great digital pioneers, of Theta Digital fame, now at Schiit Audio) on these issues:

"But the High-End magazines - they are going bugphuck. What is the public to think?? Just ask the questions below, but I get ahead of myself. The magazines pander to a hungry readership, eagerly anticipating tech wowsies in an industry which has known 5 major changes of tech in 110 years: Edison cylinders to 78 RPM flat discs, then to 33RPM long playing mono then stereo records, then to CDs, and finally to virtual music either streamed or living on user owned media. All of the significant tech news of 110 years of consumer audio in one sentence. Damned boring.

"Where those magazines and their readers miss the boat completely is the lie that consumer audio is a tech driven industry. Don't get me wrong - tech driven superior sound is fun. In reality, audio is all about economics. That's the rub: there is not enough money in the consumer audio market to support two different mainstream media formats or configurations. Never has been. Again, see the questions. The entry level end, from where our users bubble up, care about one thing: bang for the buck. It all begins with 2-3 buck ds dac chips which deliver quite a bit for for cheap in phones, etc. At all levels from the bottom to the top, that which delivers the most for the buck in the current format mentioned above wins. The outliers such as HDCD and MQA, even if sonically superior, have always lost."

[...]

"Here is what we are doing at Schiit. We are sending out a press release to indicate why we will not build any MQA decoding device for the foreseeable future. If we are wrong about the future of MQA and significant portions of the available and future audio catalog are offered – we will then be forced to look at in the same terms as Bluetooth Audio, MP3 and other lossy formats. For the moment, it is very safe to assume that Schiit will never be in the biz of attempting the futile task of polishing audio turds." (End quote)

From:
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/w...en-robert-hunter.784471/page-44#post-12607158

***

Also, from the book "Schiit Happened", p. 312 ('Mike' here is again Mike Moffat, from a conversation with Jason Stoddard, the other co-founder of Schiit Audio):

“Stop worrying [about DSD],” Mike said. “Where did reel to reel go? Nowhere. Wheredid quadraphonic go? Nowhere. Where did Elcassette go? Nowhere.Where did DAT go? Nowhere. Where did minidisk go? Nowhere. Wheredid HDCD go? Nowhere. Where did SACD go? Pretty much nowhere.I expect DSD will pretty much go the same exact place.”

“But what if it doesn’t?”

Mike groaned. “These special formats all end up the same place, because there’s no software for them. When there are more DSD downloads available than SACDs, let me know. Then I’ll start worrying.”

 

[rbbert]

Although SACD's keep being released, around 15-20 new classical SACD's every month, and Audio Fidelity and MFSL for jazz/pop/rock several more... That isn't a lot, but they are pretty much all "keepers", unlike most of the stuff that comes out on CD every week.

 

[radioactive]

That's easily fixed, just aim to the right further If you're lucky, you'll get an extra long roll when it lands too haha.

LOLOLOL, I had a great game going until the 5th. then the 8th, 14th, 17th then big old slap ya in your face 18. I had developed a nice duck hook out of the blue by the time I got to 12 if that tells ya anything. Oh ps, hot humid and my dew point was off the charts.

 

[radioactive]

Re: Just some facts and thoughts on MQA

It's nice to read that some experts are taking a stance on MQA and explaining why they are for or against in simple terms. I would however argue that there have been other big changes in audio thanks to technology. It has improved the performance of our gear enabling us to better design systems and make very fine measurements using technology previously unavailable. Some examples include improvements in speaker cabinet resonances, heat dissipation, use of SMD's and room calibration. In the case of the latter, technology has enabled us to create improvements that range from automatic types used in pre/pros such as of Audyssey, ARC, etc. to room calibration/correction systems built into subwoofers. It also enabled us to do more vigorous manual measurements which can be fed into systems that calculate exactly where and what kind of room treatments are needed. I'm indifferent about adding the creation of Blu-ray since it's an iterative improvement on SACD/DVD's density, but there are bluray audio discs. These are a few additional examples of technical advances in audio, there are lots more, but they're not as revolutionary as the "5 major changes" quoted. They do make for better sounding systems though.

I'm a believer in DSD. I've found it to be the best sounding digital format out there and it's my preferred format.

The problem with analog formats is the following: 1) Ease of use -- you can't swap from artist to artist or song to song easily. 2) High maintenance -- both playback device and media. 3) They all have artifacts that are annoying -- every reel to reel has some level of hiss or blurb where the tape isn't perfect, every album eventually gets a scratch or nick and no stylus is perfect [just look at the turntables with multiple arms that enable you to have multiple styli/styluses]. And finally, 4) Every analog format slowly degrades the playback material with every playback. With tape (R2R), friction across the tape heads wears the tape (thus the ubiquity of splice kits from tears and such during its prime), it magnetizes the head and can also wear the head down if you use it a lot. Also, every album play wears the groove and the stylus until eventually you lose the fidelity of the album when compared to the original. Analog is mechanical and degrades due to friction. All that and it's bulky to store. At its best, it sounds great, but analog is not something that's easily used for daily long term playback sessions.

Digital isn't perfect, but DSD is as good as it gets IMO.

Yup, same story as ever. This 'special' formats go nowhere. I knew that SACD basically was also dead on arrival (there's now probably on this format less than 0.1 % of all the music available on CD), and I am glad that I never got tempted. I don't own an SACD player/transport, and I don't own a single SACD. One of the best decisions in my audiophile life, not having wasted time, money and energy on that format.

***

Here is Mike Moffat (one of the great digital pioneers, of Theta Digital fame, now at Schiit Audio) on these issues:

"But the High-End magazines - they are going bugphuck. What is the public to think?? Just ask the questions below, but I get ahead of myself. The magazines pander to a hungry readership, eagerly anticipating tech wowsies in an industry which has known 5 major changes of tech in 110 years: Edison cylinders to 78 RPM flat discs, then to 33RPM long playing mono then stereo records, then to CDs, and finally to virtual music either streamed or living on user owned media. All of the significant tech news of 110 years of consumer audio in one sentence. Damned boring.

"Where those magazines and their readers miss the boat completely is the lie that consumer audio is a tech driven industry. Don't get me wrong - tech driven superior sound is fun. In reality, audio is all about economics. That's the rub: there is not enough money in the consumer audio market to support two different mainstream media formats or configurations. Never has been. Again, see the questions. The entry level end, from where our users bubble up, care about one thing: bang for the buck. It all begins with 2-3 buck ds dac chips which deliver quite a bit for for cheap in phones, etc. At all levels from the bottom to the top, that which delivers the most for the buck in the current format mentioned above wins. The outliers such as HDCD and MQA, even if sonically superior, have always lost."

[...]

"Here is what we are doing at Schiit. We are sending out a press release to indicate why we will not build any MQA decoding device for the foreseeable future. If we are wrong about the future of MQA and significant portions of the available and future audio catalog are offered – we will then be forced to look at in the same terms as Bluetooth Audio, MP3 and other lossy formats. For the moment, it is very safe to assume that Schiit will never be in the biz of attempting the futile task of polishing audio turds." (End quote)

From:
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/w...en-robert-hunter.784471/page-44#post-12607158

***

Also, from the book "Schiit Happened", p. 312 ('Mike' here is again Mike Moffat, from a conversation with Jason Stoddard, the other co-founder of Schiit Audio):

“Stop worrying [about DSD],” Mike said. “Where did reel to reel go? Nowhere. Wheredid quadraphonic go? Nowhere. Where did Elcassette go? Nowhere.Where did DAT go? Nowhere. Where did minidisk go? Nowhere. Wheredid HDCD go? Nowhere. Where did SACD go? Pretty much nowhere.I expect DSD will pretty much go the same exact place.”

“But what if it doesn’t?”

Mike groaned. “These special formats all end up the same place, because there’s no software for them. When there are more DSD downloads available than SACDs, let me know. Then I’ll start worrying.”

 

[CPP]

Oh, some more MQA smack down, from Srajan Ebaen from 6 moons, on the DAR site. http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/07/kih-46-mqas-missing-link/

 

[AJ Soundfield]

It's still the same. MQA adds anharmonic HF aliasing distortion "folded" back into the audio band due to the "lazy" filter. Some audiophiles are going to love this type of distortion, others not. There is nothing "authentic" about it, but some will prefer, others not. YMMV.
As long as MQA is just an option for the fringe, like all that came before it (HDCD>) all is well. If it becomes the sole way that some music is encoded...and that seems to be the intent, then that is bad news for those who don't prefer the added distortion.

 

[CPP]

It's still the same. MQA adds anharmonic HF aliasing distortion "folded" back into the audio band due to the "lazy" filter. Some audiophiles are going to love this type of distortion, others not. There is nothing "authentic" about it, but some will prefer, others not. YMMV.
As long as MQA is just an option for the fringe, like all that came before it (HDCD>) all is well. If it becomes the sole way that some music is encoded...and that seems to be the intent, then that is bad news for those who don't prefer the added distortion.

So true AJ, I just hope in the end MQA is not the end all of audio recording like you say encoded. Hope in years to come, there are options (formats) for the listener to chose what they prefer.

 

[still-one]

I was a bit surprised by these statement from the Pied Piper of Vinyl (aka Michael Fremer) in his review of the Brinkmann Audio Nyquist D?A Processor in Stereophile's August issue.

"Those who claim they can't hear the difference between CD resolution files and high Rez MQA files either haven't bothered to listen , or don't want to admit their claims of "CD sound is perfect" mare just plain wrong."

and "hearing (MQA) files streamed through the Nyquist via Tidal was and ear opener. Had this been CD sound in 1983, I'd still be a LP guy-but I'd also be all in with digital. "

 

[CPP]

I was a bit surprised by these statement from the Pied Piper of Vinyl (aka Michael Fremer) in his review of the Brinkmann Audio Nyquist D?A Processor in Stereophile's August issue.

"Those who claim they can't hear the difference between CD resolution files and high Rez MQA files either haven't bothered to listen , or don't want to admit their claims of "CD sound is perfect" mare just plain wrong."

and "hearing (MQA) files streamed through the Nyquist via Tidal was and ear opener. Had this been CD sound in 1983, I'd still be a LP guy-but I'd also be all in with digital. "

I wonder if JA made Mr vinyl change his tune on MQA , LOL

 

[Mike]

I wonder if JA made Mr vinyl change his tune on MQA , LOL

He's been a supporter since he first heard it. I talked to him privately early on when we all first heard it at CES 2 1/2 years ago.

 

[CPP]

He's been a supporter since he first heard it. I talked to him privately early on when we all first heard it at CES 2 1/2 years ago.

Now that's pretty cool.

 

[Kuoppis]

Oh, some more MQA smack down, from Srajan Ebaen from 6 moons, on the DAR site. http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/07/kih-46-mqas-missing-link/

Not sure why anyone would be surprised finding out MQA is a marketing story. It's just files re-recorded through a filter. The reason why a special DAC is needed for playback is purely commercial, to re-sell the existing catalogue - again.

Mr Lewinson's new company (Daniel Hertz) has its own system for that, except you can define the settings yourself, how you want the new "original" to sound.


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[Mike]

Not sure why anyone would be surprised finding out MQA is a marketing story. It's just files re-recorded through a filter. The reason why a special DAC is needed for playback is purely commercial, to re-sell the existing catalogue - again.

Mr Lewinson's new company (Daniel Hertz) has its own system for that, except you can define the settings yourself, how you want the new "original" to sound.


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Do you have a link?


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