Mono records with non-mono cartridges.

[asindc]

I've been thinking of getting more into the reissues being done by Analogue Productions, Music Matters, and others. I only have a few monos at the present, but as I explore the various reissues, I know I will inevitably want more mono titles. If I am paying premium prices, I prefer the reissue to be in its original format. If that is mono, so be it. I also occasionally find used records that I want that were originally recorded in mono. I don't have a mono cartridge but my phono stage has a mono button. I've only noticed a difference on one of my mono records, a Frank Sinatra Christmas album. I could eventually get a second tonearm for my Classic 3 and outfit it with a mono cartridge, but even as I collect more mono records, I'm not sure how worthwhile that would be.

For those who have a sizeable (I'll let you determine what sizeable is to you) collection of monos, reissue or not, and don't have a mono cartridge, have you decided that getting a mono cartridge isn't worth it or have you just simply not gone to the trouble of getting one?

 

[Petro85]

talk to Mikech hes got a ton of mono records and a pretty new cadenza mono and loves it. for anyone with a decent size mono collection its a worthy investment. i will be getting one soon and am on the lookout for mono records now. i feel once i get like 20-25(mostly used)monos i will buy the cartridge. since i have an ortofon arm im thinking maybe a mono spu.

 

[Steve]

With the new mono reissues, eg Analog Productions 45RPMs etc, I'm satisfied with what I am getting out of the Clearaudio GFS & the mono button on the C1000T pre.

V microgroove .7mil vs U microgroove 1mil? Beware... The real question is whether or not a stereo cutter was used for these modern day mono reissues. If so, a mono stylus Should NOT be used as there would be vertical modulations in the groove (albeit the same as the lateral modulations) which would get damaged by using a wider mono stylus.

My bet is that older mono cutters are not being used on most if not all reissues. Steve Hoffman at Sterling Sound uses a V tip on his lathe. The trick is in the channel alignment. That is why these great mono reissues are quiet as the vertical information is there.

Personally, I would not use a mono cartridge on new mono reissues as the vinyl will get damaged (shredded). If you know for certain, that it is an authentic mono reissue cut on a mono lathe with a u-tip, then go for it. But when it comes to the plough, you cannot damage your vinyl with a modern v-tip stereo stylus...

Definitely, a mono stylus is in order for use with vintage mono albums that were cut with a wider u-shaped groove in their day.

 

[asindc]

With the new mono reissues, eg Analog Productions 45RPMs etc, I'm satisfied with what I am getting out of the Clearaudio GFS & the mono button on the C1000T pre.

V microgroove .7mil vs U microgroove 1mil? Beware... The real question is whether or not a stereo cutter was used for these modern day mono reissues. If so, a mono stylus Should NOT be used as there would be vertical modulations in the groove (albeit the same as the lateral modulations) which would get damaged by using a wider mono stylus.

My bet is that older mono cutters are not being used on most if not all reissues. Steve Hoffman at Sterling Sound uses a V tip on his lathe. The trick is in the channel alignment. That is why these great mono reissues are quiet as the vertical information is there.

Personally, I would not use a mono cartridge on new mono reissues as the vinyl will get damaged (shredded). If you know for certain, that it is an authentic mono reissue cut on a mono lathe with a u-tip, then go for it. But when it comes to the plough, you cannot damage your vinyl with a modern v-tip stereo stylus...

Definitely, a mono stylus is in order for use with vintage mono albums that were cut with a wider u-shaped groove in their day.

Thanks, Steve. I knew about the differences in the shape of the stylus tips, but I had not considered that mono reissues have been cut on stereo cutters.

 

[MikeCh]

Not owning any of the newer mono reissues myself but having many original mono LP's in my collection, it's my opinion that a mono-specific cart does indeed shine for playback of the older LP's. However, having a high quality stereo cart will get you a big chunk of the way there with the older mono pressings (can't speak to a quality stereo or mono cart with newer mono reissues).

I think the outstanding sound of a high quality stereo cart used with older mono pressings has to do with the overall tracking and accuracy even when tracing only the lateral movements of said mono LP's.

 

[astrotoy]

I have a fair number of older mono recordings in my 15K of records. Having a VPI TT, with a VPI 12.6 arm, I have the advantage that the tone arm is extremely easy to replace. So I have two arms, with one having a Lyra Skala stereo cartridge and the other having a Lyra Helikon mono cartridge. It only takes about a minute to switch arms and cartridges - no rebalancing or remounting necessary. I have both played and ripped quite a few mono recordings, always with the mono cartridge. I do have a few recent mono issues (like the Coup d'Archet Martzy recording, and now am worried about whether they were cut with stereo or mono cutters. I will be contacting Glenn Armstrong. Has anyone contacted Chad about the Blue Note and other mono reissues?

Thanks, Larry

 

[Steve]

I have a fair number of older mono recordings in my 15K of records. Having a VPI TT, with a VPI 12.6 arm, I have the advantage that the tone arm is extremely easy to replace. So I have two arms, with one having a Lyra Skala stereo cartridge and the other having a Lyra Helikon mono cartridge. It only takes about a minute to switch arms and cartridges - no rebalancing or remounting necessary. I have both played and ripped quite a few mono recordings, always with the mono cartridge. I do have a few recent mono issues (like the Coup d'Archet Martzy recording, and now am worried about whether they were cut with stereo or mono cutters. I will be contacting Glenn Armstrong. Has anyone contacted Chad about the Blue Note and other mono reissues?

Thanks, Larry

Larry, you make a strong point about disclosure. I think that any reissue should have a disclosure document detailing the re-engineering process & recommended playback method. I know that AS makes a big deal about some of the re-mastering projects like original tapes & analogue mastering equipment. But is all goes quiet when it comes to the lathe & the cutters... Apparently Steve Hoffman has been asked the question....they use modern stereo cutters.

I have no problem with mono reissues being cut with a stereo v-tip for use with modern stylus. In fact I think that provided the channel adjustment is done just right & that both channels are EXACTLY IN PHASE, then it can only be a good thing. The result is quiet mono & you can always hit the pre-amp mono button to see if there is any difference. eg. noise or phase cancellation artefacts.

 

[MikeCh]

......

 

[astrotoy]

I have asked the phonogram group to which I belong to see whether any of them know how the recent mono reissues have been cut. I only have the Coup d'Archet mono reissues from the mid and late 2000's. However, I do have friends that have many of the Blue Note and other jazz reissues that Chad Kassem (Acoustic Sounds) has reissued. There is another company that has done a bunch of the mono blue notes, but I don't remember the name of the company. I don't have any of those recordings.

If I don't hear back in a couple of days, I will go ahead to Chad Kassem and Glenn Armstrong.

Larry

 

[faskenite]

Hi Larry and everybody, Peter Downard from Phonogram here. A couple points: (1) in my experience a mono cartridge in a good system is important for mono records, and there are some very good options that are not terribly expensive; I have had a mono Lyra Dorian for a few years and I think it's great (not having VPI replaceable arm wands, I run two turntables, a Linn and a Rega); (2) I will be interested to hear what Mr Kassem or Mr Armstrong might have to say, but I have always thought current day monos were cut with modern (ie stereo) cutting heads on the assumption that they would be played back with a stereo stylus (like in the case of the Lyras) with either a stereo or mono cart.

 

[Kt77]

I've managed to enjoy many originals jazz LPs on Blue Note - Columbia - Prestige with stereo cartridges since the early 70s, but upon hearing them in 2010, which was the last year I was mobile enough to listen to them, but heard on even an inexpensive Soundsmith Otello Mono Cartridge allowed their finer beauty to shine through, it wasn't funny.

But my ears tell me, one can get away with playing more current/modern mono releases with a standard stereo cartridge and not miss the added weight as heard on the older recordings, as I believe someone hinted at above.

Either way, I can see/feel why some have gone back to collecting only mono LPs, as quiet as it's kept, I know of a few record store owners whom only collect/play 78s, and swear by totem fidelity wise, but that's another story.

 

[BobM]

I don't listen to mono records much. So using a regular cartridge is just fine for my purposes. No justification for the extra spend to make it better in my case.

 

[asindc]

I have a fair number of older mono recordings in my 15K of records. Having a VPI TT, with a VPI 12.6 arm, I have the advantage that the tone arm is extremely easy to replace. So I have two arms, with one having a Lyra Skala stereo cartridge and the other having a Lyra Helikon mono cartridge. It only takes about a minute to switch arms and cartridges - no rebalancing or remounting necessary. I have both played and ripped quite a few mono recordings, always with the mono cartridge. I do have a few recent mono issues (like the Coup d'Archet Martzy recording, and now am worried about whether they were cut with stereo or mono cutters. I will be contacting Glenn Armstrong. Has anyone contacted Chad about the Blue Note and other mono reissues?

Thanks, Larry

I emailed AP and MM yesterday to ask that question and I am waiting for their replies.

 

[annapolis Raider]

I added a second tonearm/cartridge specifically to play mono records. I've been very happy with the results. The vast majority of my mono's are original issues. The situation with reissues is hit and miss. The reissue companies really owe it to their customers to disclose if they are cut on stereo heads or not.

I do have one suggestion for those going down this path. Look for a mono cartridge that has some vertical compliance. This will be a safety net against possible damage. I use a Dynavector XV-1s Mono, but there are many other excellent mono cartridges that fit the bill at all price points.

 

[astrotoy]

I got a message back from my friend Dennis Davis, who does a lot of jazz reviews for HiFi+ magazine and is also quite an audiophile. He said that the modern mono reissues were cut by a stereo cutter, but that a mono cartridge will not damage them. Be interested in hearing what AS and MM have to say. I could email Jonathan Carr of Lyra to find out his perspective.

Larry

 

[Steve]

Larry, how could that be unless it is a friendly mono cartridge that is vertically compliant as stated above. My collection is mostly recent audiophile reissues, so I am looking forward to what they all have to say.

 

[astrotoy]

N.B. This is an extended version of a post I did in another thread - about good sounding CD's. I thought it was more appropriate here, with some more detail.

Regarding mono versions of records, I found some very interesting information during my research for my Decca book (Decca: Supreme Stereophonic Legacy). Decca began recording stereo versions of their recordings in 1954, four years before they began releasing stereo LP's. They knew stereo was coming, but they were still working on the cutting techniques for stereo and these stereo recordings were considered tests. During that time they had two separate teams (producer and engineer each) assigned to each recording session, one for mono and one for stereo. (There were also many sessions where there was only a mono team). The "A" team was the mono team, since that was the recording that would be released immediately and make money for Decca. For example, one of the most famous recordings of that era is "Espana" with the London Symphony conducted by Argenta. It has long been a TAS Super Disc. However, when it was recorded in 1956, the mono team was Jimmy Walker producing and the great Kenneth "Wilkie" Wilkinson engineering. The stereo version team was the much less experienced "B" team of Erik Smith producing and Gordon Parry engineering. What I found out was that the mono and stereo versions were separately edited, with different choices of edit points and even which take was used. So if you want the "Wilkie" version of the record, you would buy the mono. I have the stereo original which today costs mucho bucks, but also the mono version, which I found at our local Amoeba or Rasputin's in Berkeley for a buck. The mono is spectacular sonically. Those of you who have been drooling after some of these great early Deccas, but don't want to do a second mortgage on your house, look for old mono Deccas (London's in the US are the same) of that period. Even if you have the stereo version, the mono is worth looking for in those dollar bargain bins.

Larry

PS. Decca CEO Edward Lewis did not want his staff to get publicity about their roles in making the recordings. It was many, many years later before the album covers finally started listing the
producer and engineer for each album.

 

[Steve]

^^^^ :goodpost:

Hmmmm. I recently revolved a few early Decca & London mono & stereo pressings out the door after being ruthless with grading. I must be more mindful in future...

 

[astrotoy]

Steve, thanks. Unfortunately, this technical stuff here is way over my pay grade. I will be very personally interested in the answers from AS and MM. Although I don't have any recent AS mono Blue Notes, I have all the Coup d'Archet monos which were a few hundred bucks.

Larry

 

[asindc]

From AS/AP:

Hi Anthony,

It really depends on what album set you are asking about. The cutting engineer is about the only person who often knows. We may be able to look into a specific title if you are interested.

Thanks!