Magico S5 update

[Mike]

Interesting discussion guys. Do you think part of the frustration has to do with the sporadic way in which Magico is rolling out products? 1, 5, 3, 7?

To be fair, from their perspective, they are looking at a fickle audiophile market always craving the latest and greatest and leading us to believe that the latest is the best in that particular product line now. That might be true, might not be.

Do you guys remember the fuss when people heard the S3 (they came out AFTER the S5) and one dealer in particular noted how the midrange sounded a little better on the S3 and the S5 and how he felt that IN HIS DEMO ROOM, the S3 was a better fit? Geesh....I thought some guys were going to lose their minds.

Creating a lower model which is also a cheaper model that has improvements over a more expensive model in the line causes some angst for sure. It's like Honda saying, well, we will give the Civic 285 horsepower, but only 275 in the Accord.

So, it's a double edged sword. They need to create more and better models as frequently as possible so the name Magico stays on top of people's minds. But in doing so, it troubles some of their existing customers.

Tough call.

 

[Myles B. Astor]

I think it's because Alon will not release any old speaker just to have a cheaper model. The speaker has to be perfect in his mind - and that includes measurements and sound - before it is released. And no doubt the company is technology driven. Magico has invested in computer Q/C software that only four other companies are using today (KEF is one other that comes to mind using this software). The speaker design CAD software and modules run close to or into six figures.They are for instance the first company using the newest graphene technology that has profound implications for driver and crossover design. Alon is a perfectionist and no speaker will be released before it's time!

 

[kev313]

That's goes right back to the genesis of the discussion: the purported achievement of a new standard of perfection. Often. And, for me, the lack of value in investing in chasing it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Myles B. Astor]

That's goes right back to the genesis of the discussion: the purported achievement of a new standard of perfection. Often. And, for me, the lack of value in investing in chasing it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And it gets back to your use of the word often. It seems any change more than a score of years is too much. You drive a car out of the showroom and it loses 1/2 its value. Fact of life. Only a few companies products retain some semblance of value so if that's important to you, stay with those products. I never have had any issue selling cj or Martin-Logan.

 

[kev313]

And it gets back to your use of the word often. It seems any change more than a score of years is too much. You drive a car out of the showroom and it loses 1/2 its value. Fact of life. Only a few companies products retain some semblance of value so if that's important to you, stay with those products. I never have had any issue selling cj or Martin-Logan.

I appreciate the comparison, but I don't see much in common between the products. As to "often," the best example I can give is the M5. Here we are 5-1/2 years since the last favorable review yet Magico has nothing in its lineup resembling the speaker. It's kicked to the curb and Magico has come out with at least 2 different types of lines since then, each reaching new standards of perfection.

My 89,000 car from 2009 probably would get me more than 20 or 25k in trade today. Again, though, car depreciation is real and based on wear as well as changing tech and tastes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mep]

That's goes right back to the genesis of the discussion: the purported achievement of a new standard of perfection. Often. And, for me, the lack of value in investing in chasing it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

With damn few exceptions, the purchase of audio gear is not an "investment" in the traditional sense of the word. You are purchasing a depreciating asset (just like buying a car). And so, does someone want to declare when manufacturers should be allowed to introduce new models into their line or how long they have to wait until they can offer upgrades to an existing product?

Companies are in the business of constantly trying to improve their products. Look at TVs and computers for instance. I wish I had a nickel (OK, make it a hundred dollars) for every time I heard someone say "I'm going to wait until next year to buy my new computer/TV/whatever because next year it will be better and cost less." Just like standing at a train station, at some point you need to get on the train, otherwise you will be left at the station watching all the trains go by.

The primary difference between audio gear and many other commercial products like the examples I listed is that audio gear does improve, but the prices don't come down. You are most probably not going to wait around and buy a new product that will be better than the model it replaced and buy it at a cheaper price. If you happen to buy an audio product at the end of its production run before a revision or a new model comes out you are probably not going to be real thrilled when the news is announced that your model has been superseded. That's life.

 

[kev313]

To be clear, I was not referring to investing in the sense of a vehicle that preserves or enhances the original dollars spent. I was simply referring to the fact that chasing six figure products every 5 years to keep up with the new standard of alleged perfection isn't what I want to do with my money. Does audio gear improve enough to warrant that cycle?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LVB]

What about Magico? How did they treat the v3 (2007ish)?

How did they? I had a V3 for 4 years, sold it and moved on, what is wrong with that?

How about you M5 owners that bought in after the 2009 TAS review? 6 years later the Magico SOTA landscape is dramatically different. Is there lasting value in that $89,000 purchase? There would not be for me and I wouldn't find much comfort in calling it a natural evolution. A brief review of past sales of M5 shows many 20k listings and one as low as 16.5. Resale value isn't everything, of course, but it's certainly a reflection that your bleeding edge speakers bled out.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And Wilson did not do the same with the XLF (a pair of X2 is on AG for $53K for a long time)? Or what about the Shasha vs. WP8? That happens to all companies, Magico is not different in that regards.

That's goes right back to the genesis of the discussion: the purported achievement of a new standard of perfection. Often. And, for me, the lack of value in investing in chasing it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So we are back to square one, assuming you are not one of those audiophiles who keep chasing their tail, would you rather buy what is the best today, knowing it will not be the best tomorrow, or something that is already not the best today, so it will still be “just as good”, tomorrow…
I just don’t see the logic here, this is purely a psychological twist in some people mind that I am not sure where it is coming from. Criticizing a company for its pursuit of excellent must be an audiophiles thing, as I have never seen it in any other industry.

 

[LVB]

The primary difference between audio gear and many other commercial products like the examples I listed is that audio gear does improve, but the prices don't come down. You are most probably not going to wait around and buy a new product that will be better than the model it replaced and buy it at a cheaper price. If you happen to buy an audio product at the end of its production run before a revision or a new model comes out you are probably not going to be real thrilled when the news is announced that your model has been superseded. That's life.

Actually, Magico constantly come up with new, better, stuff on less expensive models. But some people find that frustrating…

 

[mep]

To be clear, I was not referring to investing in the sense of a vehicle that preserves or enhances the original dollars spent. I was simply referring to the fact that chasing six figure products every 5 years to keep up with the new standard of alleged perfection isn't what I want to do with my money. Does audio gear improve enough to warrant that cycle?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Only the person that is laying the cash out can answer that question. For some it will be worth it and for others it won't. You have expressed your opinion that it's not right for you and that's fine. What I don't think is right is criticizing companies for improving their products and bringing them to market quicker than you would like them to.

 

[mep]

Actually, Magico constantly come up with new, better, stuff on less expensive models. But some people find that frustrating…

I understand that, but the less expensive speakers don't cost less than the model they replaced. They are certainly cheaper than the much bigger more expensive models that have not benefited from the new technology insertions yet, but it's all relative.

 

[LVB]

I understand that, but the less expensive speakers don't cost less than the model they replaced. They are certainly cheaper than the much bigger more expensive models that have not benefited from the new technology insertions yet, but it's all relative.

True, but not in all cases, see Q5 Vs M5 (not a clear replacement but...), that did not go well for some people…

 

[kev313]

Only the person that is laying the cash out can answer that question. For some it will be worth it and for others it won't. You have expressed your opinion that it's not right for you and that's fine. What I don't think is right is criticizing companies for improving their products and bringing them to market quicker than you would like them to.

That's a limited view of the criticism. I'm skeptical that the improvement is there at least in a way that warrants the cost. Is it also in part, as Mike said, an effort to keep the name fresh? Why judge whether a criticism is right or wrong? They charge the prices. They make the money. They open themselves to criticism. I've purchased Magico from an AD, so I suppose I even have standing of sorts to raise the criticism over one who has not. Though I really think any interested party is free to comment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mep]

That's a limited view of the criticism. I'm skeptical that the improvement is there at least in a way that warrants the cost. Is it also in part, as Mike said, an effort to keep the name fresh? Why judge whether a criticism is right or wrong? They charge the prices. They make the money. They open themselves to criticism. I've purchased Magico from an AD, so I suppose I even have standing of sorts to raise the criticism over one who has not. Though I really think any interested party is free to comment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, I am glad to know that when you post something on a forum it's ok for other people to comment on what you said. No company is forcing their customers to buy their upgrades or new models. It's a personal decision that the consumer makes. If the new model/upgrade doesn't represent good value to you, that's certainly fine and dandy.

 

[PeterA]

That's goes right back to the genesis of the discussion: the purported achievement of a new standard of perfection. Often. And, for me, the lack of value in investing in chasing it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Kev, I understand how you feel. I own Magico Mini IIs and still love them for all the reasons that I bought them used six or so years ago. Chasing the latest can indeed be expensive and ultimately quite frustrating. However, companies like Magico do produce great speakers and when current models are replaced, audiophiles often are presented with great opportunities to buy used speakers that still compare very favorably to the competition often at substantially lower prices. IMO, there are few better values in all of audio that a good pair of used, discontinued Magico speakers. And you know the company will be around for a long time to provide replacement parts.

Regarding a point you made earlier in the thread about companies that do not introduce new models very often, consider SME. They do not change products very often. They do not advertise much, and their products are of the highest built quality with superb reliability and service. They are not so popular in the US, but elsewhere, they have a long waiting list for their top models. They represent long term value like few other brands, IMO.

 

[kev313]

Well, I am glad to know that when you post something on a forum it's ok for other people to comment on what you said. No company is forcing their customers to buy their upgrades or new models. It's a personal decision that the consumer makes. If the new model/upgrade doesn't represent good value to you, that's certainly fine and dandy.

You really have a way of putting a certain spin on things. Are you this adversarial in all pursuits in life or is it just in audio forums that this happens? This goes to my general belief that participation in online hobby discussions is inversely proportional to ones enjoyment of the hobby. TO BE MORE CLEAR, the reason I added that last sentence was to make it clear that I don't not think one has to invest in the company in order to have an opinion I originally posted without the last sentence but edited as I thought the post otherwise came off as standoffish.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[kev313]

Kev, I understand how you feel. I own Magico Mini IIs and still love them for all the reasons that I bought them used six or so years ago. Chasing the latest can indeed be expensive and ultimately quite frustrating. However, companies like Magico do produce great speakers and when current models are replaced, audiophiles often are presented with great opportunities to buy used speakers that still compare very favorably to the competition often at substantially lower prices. IMO, there are few better values in all of audio that a good pair of used, discontinued Magico speakers. And you know the company will be around for a long time to provide replacement parts.

Regarding a point you made earlier in the thread about companies that do not introduce new models very often, consider SME. They do not change products very often. They do not advertise much, and their products are of the highest built quality with superb reliability and service. They are not so popular in the US, but elsewhere, they have a long waiting list for their top models. They represent long term value like few other brands, IMO.

I've often thought about a pair of used Mini and agree with you about the value of used Magico, for sure. Thanks for the SME example.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Dpod4]

To be clear, I was not referring to investing in the sense of a vehicle that preserves or enhances the original dollars spent. I was simply referring to the fact that chasing six figure products every 5 years to keep up with the new standard of alleged perfection isn't what I want to do with my money. Does audio gear improve enough to warrant that cycle?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Whether manufacturers like it or not there is an emotional / affiliative component to brand loyalty. Magico, unlike CJ or Mcintosh et al, hasn't been around long enough to have brand loyalty that transcends their products. So how they handle product launches, sun setting products, upgrade paths, product tiering, etc will set the course on how brand is perceived and felt. Iterating often and out loud (new products with only expression being "next perfect model") will create a halo of extreme innovation and engineering but does not create consumer loyalty or lasting product value. The reference to product life cycles of computers and tvs is a good comparison. Those are commodities. I want my high end equipment to transcend commoditization. One reason I smile every time i turn on my Marantz MA9S2 monos. They are better than anything I had in my system north of $20k. Under the hood engineers have told me how well designed they are. Statement product with lasting value. And from a brand that in the U.S. is associated with commodity home theater products! Perfect irony. And then my preamp is an air tight ref 2001 that even has 4 phono inputs. It beat all modern day preamps I had in my system and I don't think that design has changed for 14 years. These will be paired with Maggie 20.7 speakers. Easy to have brand loyalty to that system.

I respect Magico and Alon. He is creative and engineering force. He builds the Porsche 911 of the audio industry. I think his head of product management (maybe that is him) will likely create a more deliberate product / line management approach as the company matures and has to manage even more models in the market place. Better separation between lines. More staged trickle down and less dramatic obsolescence. Or he will just continue making some of the world's best speakers and none of this will matter

 

[puroagave]

Only the person that is laying the cash out can answer that question. For some it will be worth it and for others it won't. You have expressed your opinion that it's not right for you and that's fine. What I don't think is right is criticizing companies for improving their products and bringing them to market quicker than you would like them to.

Magico is the only company in my recent memory that puts so much of their resources back into product research. I never Met Alon but every article I've read about the man seemed like he's obsessed at raising the bar. I saw a mention somewhere that he acquired a shaker machine just for destruction testing his shipping crates - who else does that?

 

[Bifwynne]

Interesting discussion guys. Do you think part of the frustration has to do with the sporadic way in which Magico is rolling out products? 1, 5, 3, 7?

To be fair, from their perspective, they are looking at a fickle audiophile market always craving the latest and greatest and leading us to believe that the latest is the best in that particular product line now. That might be true, might not be.

Mike ... I've been noodling the thought of replacing my speakers and Magico S5s were on my short list. I followed some of your comments about Magicos needing the right amp to really come alive. Do you think my ARC Ref 150 SE might be a good fit for the S5s? Enough power??

Other speakers on my short list might be Revel Ultima Salon 2s. FWIW, they have been listed as a Class A speaker on Stereophile's Recommended Components List for several years now. Or perhaps the Vandy Quatro Wood CT.

Just thinking out loud.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

BIF