BTW at what level does THD in speakers and Audio in general become audible......
Probably lower then cable swapping
Magico S5 mk2
- Thread starter vagabundo
- Start date
Probably lower then cable swapping
KeithR
Active member
It's interesting, but down the list of important factors - both Dr. Toole and JA agree here. Also, Magicos (and others) compress at higher volumes so what does that THD even relate to? JA on the subject:
Harmonic Distortion
There is considerable discussion in the literature of nonlinear (harmonic) distortion in loudspeaker behavior [46, 47, 48]. All loudspeakers have nonlinear distortion, and small, inexpensive loudspeakers tend to have more nonlinear distortion than large, expensive loudspeakers. Perversely, I don't think this is that important a factor in loudspeaker performance. I have measured loudspeaker harmonic distortion spectra when listening tests had suggested that it was unusually high or low [49, 50]. I have also investigated distortion when I have found a loudspeaker producing audible sub-harmonics, tones whose frequencies are an integral fraction, one half, one third, one quarter, of the fundamental [51]. In a presentation at the 1989 Audio Engineering Society Convention in New York, the mathematician Manfred Schroeder postulated that the production of subharmonics is often related to the presence of chaotic behavior in a diaphragm. This latter phenomenon can be heard on Stereophile's Test CD 2, Track 25.
But of all the loudspeakers that have been reviewed in Stereophile in the past eight years, there are only a few in which noticeable levels of harmonic distortion have been associated with negative review findings. However, I do conjecture that listeners use overall distortion to set a comfortable playback level. If a loudspeaker has high intrinsic distortion, hence a limited dynamic range, it won't be played as loud. Once the level of harmonic distortion rises above a threshold (probably one that is different for each listener), the listener reaches for the volume-control knob. I realize, of course, that my opinions on this subject will be controversial.
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/measuring-loudspeakers-part-two-page-7#GForUymAjHy2otmZ.99
I think Doug Schneider does an excellent job describing why speaker measurements aren't the panacea some look for:
http://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/opinion/852-why-i-don-t-infer-a-speaker-s-sound-from-its-measurements
My own opinion has evolved on the subject, but psychoacoutics has a large role in speaker selection - for instance, I find B&Ws bright while many consider them mellow as the dip in FR is dependent on the subject's response. Some trebles are too flat at extension which comes off as analytical to some, great resolution to others.
Wilson changed the voicing of their speakers significantly in the past 5 years. This was in response to D. Wilson working with the Vienna Philharmonic - what measurements were associated with those?
And then I know people who would never own a Wilson or Magico as they are panel fans and hate the lack of coherency despite smooth step responses.
And we haven't even discussed driver material, which measurements don't tell the whole story.
Keith, do you find Magico speakers lack coherency? I find them to be the most coherent multi driver speakers that I have heard.
a.wayne
Well-known member
Any specific model Peter or the whole line ...?
I have heard the Mini 2 (own it), the V2, V3, M5, Q1, Q3, Q5, Q7, S1, S5, S7 and M Pro (extensively).
The V3 was the least coherent in my experience. The M5 was superb, the Mini 2 disappears (as all great mini monitors should). The Q series sounds very coherent (of a whole) to me. The S7 and M Pro were also. The S series perhaps not quite as much as the Q, but as far as an entire range or line from one manufacturer, I find them to be extremely coherent sounding, though individual models certainly sound different from each other in other areas.
The M5, Q3 and M Pro are the largest speakers that I have ever heard completely disappear as sound sources. Extraordinary. Of course, this did have a lot to do with proper set up in the room.
Tonal balance is sometimes quite apparent and different depending on set up and system, but the driver integration almost always was near seamless, except for the V3, in my experience.
The V3 was the least coherent in my experience. The M5 was superb, the Mini 2 disappears (as all great mini monitors should). The Q series sounds very coherent (of a whole) to me. The S7 and M Pro were also. The S series perhaps not quite as much as the Q, but as far as an entire range or line from one manufacturer, I find them to be extremely coherent sounding, though individual models certainly sound different from each other in other areas.
The M5, Q3 and M Pro are the largest speakers that I have ever heard completely disappear as sound sources. Extraordinary. Of course, this did have a lot to do with proper set up in the room.
Tonal balance is sometimes quite apparent and different depending on set up and system, but the driver integration almost always was near seamless, except for the V3, in my experience.
kzhtoo
Active member
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If S3's are time incoherent, I don't hear it. They sound a lot more coherent than all the speakers that passed through my room and those that I heard at the dealers. In fact, that is the trait that I am in awe every day, not the midrange and/or frequency extreme performance, but as a whole the manner they reproduce music. Everyday I scratched my head how they could sound effortless and at ease with my Pass XA30.8 amp.
M
mauidan
Guest
The only Magicos I've heard are Mini 2, V3, and recently the S3.
IMO,the Mini 2 blew away the V3. It was fun to listen to.
My listening session with the S3 was as unexciting as the V3.
I’d like to hear the S1 Mk. II, but unfortunately, there is no Magico dealer in HI.
IMO,the Mini 2 blew away the V3. It was fun to listen to.
My listening session with the S3 was as unexciting as the V3.
I’d like to hear the S1 Mk. II, but unfortunately, there is no Magico dealer in HI.
BlueFox
New member
If there is anyone who can speak from experience about Magico distortion at high volume then it is me.
I accidentally turned my preamp to the max one night, and I was just sitting there absolutely amazed at how a speaker could play so LOUD, yet still sound fantastic. I was literally being pounded by the music while it sounded as good as at lower volume levels. Unfortunately, after some time the high volume broke the speakers, but they sounded great until then.
a.wayne
Well-known member
a.wayne
Well-known member
If there is anyone who can speak from experience about Magico distortion at high volume then it is me.
I accidentally turned my preamp to the max one night, and I was just sitting there absolutely amazed at how a speaker could play so LOUD, yet still sound fantastic. I was literally being pounded by the music while it sounded as good as at lower volume levels. Unfortunately, after some time the high volume broke the speakers, but they sounded great until then.
What were you listening to , Michael Blunt ...
Face
New member
BTW at what level does THD in speakers and Audio in general become audible......
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=2962
Congratulations. Your system must sound fantastic. Magico/Pass is a great combination. I've got the Mini II and Pass XA160.5. Effortless and very natural sounding.
If there is anyone who can speak from experience about Magico distortion at high volume then it is me.
I accidentally turned my preamp to the max one night, and I was just sitting there absolutely amazed at how a speaker could play so LOUD, yet still sound fantastic. I was literally being pounded by the music while it sounded as good as at lower volume levels. Unfortunately, after some time the high volume broke the speakers, but they sounded great until then.
Bud - are you joining us on August 28th at Magico?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
BlueFox
New member
If you are going to be in Hayward then I would love to be there. I certainly know how to get there. Count me in.
kzhtoo
Active member
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Thank you, Peter. I follow and admire your mini 2 system on various forums. I also hope Magico make "Q2" or "M2" just for you.
Thanks. Glad to read that someone is following my posts. I'd call it a "Mini M". For the M Pro owner who wants a great, smaller second system, or for the guy with a small room who wants great sound. I just don't know if Magico thinks the market would be big enough for such a speaker.
KeithR
Active member
What speakers are incoherent to you?
KeithR
Active member
Not particularly, but I'm not a coherency nut like a lot of panel guys. In fact, I've always wanted to purchase used M5s as I wasn't a fan of the Q series at all. Unfortunately they require an arc welder to drive
My Magico experience most recently was with the S5 on all Vac gear and the tweeter definitely drew attention to itself in that dealer setup. Perhaps less toe-in or whatnot would have alleviated that concern. I also didn't find them particularly dynamic, despite monster tube amps, which is a key buying criteria for me.
Not particularly, but I'm not a coherency nut like a lot of panel guys. In fact, I've always wanted to purchase used M5s as I wasn't a fan of the Q series at all. Unfortunately they require an arc welder to drive
My Magico experience most recently was with the S5 on all Vac gear and the tweeter definitely drew attention to itself in that dealer setup. Perhaps less toe-in or whatnot would have alleviated that concern. I also didn't find them particularly dynamic, despite monster tube amps, which is a key buying criteria for me.
My friend has a pair of Martin Logans. I don't know the model but it is a panel with a cone woofer in an enclosure below. I never thought this speaker was very coherent. I could always hear the woofer separate from the panel. The two do not seem very well integrated, imo, so he has tried to modify the crossover pretty extensively. This is only limited experience with panels.
I also heard a pair of Altec horns with a massive woofer. The guy had them set up for near field listening and there was no coherency. Cello sounded very strange.
Driver integration and coherency is an interesting issue and can really destroy the sense of believability of a system.