Magico M????

[Al M.]

Point noted - I stay away from subs. Space, crossovers, etc. My point about the differences goes beyond subs and bass reproduction it's just about how the speakers play as a whole. I'm not arguing that the m3 isn't a better speaker and can be tuned with subs and ancillary gear to bring out some more performance in areas where the listener sees fit...instead, i'm arguing that depending on a listener's musical tastes what they enjoy, given an unlimited budget they may still be better off with the cheaper of the two speakers (in this case the s5 mk2) and more money spent elsewhere on their rigs. a good brand, imo, offers products for a variety of buyers as opposed to just scaled back versions of a top model. that's just my view on it.

in the excerpt below, alon talks about handling between a 911 and cayman. i think of it a bit differently and more for use cases. given an unlimited budget, i could see someone who has no interest in track driving buying a cayman as a car to whip around in daily. but i don't drive so i'll stay out of the car analogies

Here is an excerpt from the TAS interview I mentioned earlier:

So the S Series isn’t just “Q-lite”?
To me, the idea of just “reducing” is not good enough. I always try to give something to whatever model it is, no matter how much “less expensive” (I don’t want to say “cheap,” because none of them are), so that they can stand up for themselves. I think about Porsche. The Cayman—the mid-engine—is not a 911. But it handles better, even though it is cheaper. It’s not a 911, which is what a Porsche is supposed to be, but you always kind of feel: “Hey, you know what? My car handles better than yours!” I like to spread the love as much as possible.

Little to disagree here, you make your point eloquently. One small detail regarding the second sentence in your post: Just like you apparently do, I prefer the least amount of crossovers. I don't do crossovers with subs. I never would have a crossover from my main speakers, too much (danger of) sonic compromise. My JL Audio subs have a low-pass filter by which they simply come in below a certain frequency. My main speakers (monitors) play as they are, in parallel with the subs.

 

[Al M.]

Yeah, but its tough dropping 85 large and still needing subs imo.

It is what it is. If you're prepared to spend that kind of money you should be prepared to go all the way.

 

[LVB]

Mike,

I have to disagree with some of your points. Magico is in a class of their own understanding the OCD nature of the Audiophile as well as their dealers. We can pontificate that a new model doesn't make a previous model "inferior" but the marketplace for the previous model tells a different story as does every single reviewer and one in particular. The M Project was but one example. Hyped as a special model, one of 45, soon to be in competition with the M3 claimed to be better with a soon to be released M6 claimed to be their best. They have so many speakers I lost count and so many new speakers supplanting their prior models which is even harder to keep track of.

As a business model, I think Alon is in a class of his own and one that Wilson is trying to get into but I doubt they will have the same success. We can claim that Magico owners are satisfied with their prior purchases and don't consider prior purchases "inferior" but the NET is filled with "for sale" of both Wilson and Magico speakers every time an new and/or upgraded speaker comes out.

Alon definitely gets the OCD audiophile mentality better than any other manufacturer and definitely knows how to exploit it to the fullest. There are others out there but none better than him. I am not taking away from the quality of his products or the love people have for his product. His churning niche is unique and one of the few, if not the only one, who can get away with what he does. Both Magico and Wilson have a larger dealer distribution so every new model or upgrade also has a built in consumer base, namely the dealer, so there is little risk to Magico (and Wilson) in this rapid fire release and upgrade game; again, a great understanding of the market they are in and great business model to make money.

To your last point, you are making a quantum comparison. There is a huge difference between a new speaker every 15 years versus every few months. I don't think we need to exaggerate to the degree of 15 years to claim others are behind the curve while Magico is way ahead of the curve.

Even your car analogies have no comparison. I have owned more specialty sports cars than I care to name and their life-cycles last more than just a few months and are usually years. Plus exotic sports cars are in a totally different realm. I think maybe your comparison with Mercedes and BMW may be a more apt comparison with Magico in terms of churning but both of these models, unlike Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston, McLaren and some Porsches pretty much lose a significant part of their value the first mile off the lot.

I agree that Magico makes a great product, no question there. There are obviously many happy customers who love their products. I also agree that Magico is in business to make a profit and few if any are more profitable than Alon and he has a great business model, one I just choose not to participate in.

A good friend of mine has been trying to buy a used M3 for some time now. Not much luck (There is a used M3 on AG for $72K, hardly a deal). Another friend has been looking for a deal on a used S3/S5 Mk2 for almost a year, no such thing (what can I say I have cheap friends ). Wilson has ~40 used speakers on AG (2/3 are of products that are less than five years old), Magico has 5. I think you are giving Magico marketing scheme more credit than it deserves, the helm should go to Wilson (but unlike the Magico crowed, Wilson owners embrace any new product and upgrade, no matter how negligible the changes are).

Magico is no different than any other real business in the consumer market; they must release new products constantly. I say real because a lot of the so-called “high-end” audio manufacturers are anything but real bushiness (unless two guys in a garage, with zero overhead, is considered real in your mind).

 

[Priaptor]

A good friend of mine has been trying to buy a used M3 for some time now. Not much luck (There is a used M3 on AG for $72K, hardly a deal). Another friend has been looking for a deal on a used S3/S5 Mk2 for almost a year, no such thing (what can I say I have cheap friends ). Wilson has ~40 used speakers on AG (2/3 are of products that are less than five years old), Magico has 5. I think you are giving Magico marketing scheme more credit than it deserves, the helm should go to Wilson (but unlike the Magico crowed, Wilson owners embrace any new product and upgrade, no matter how negligible the changes are).

Magico is no different than any other real business in the consumer market; they must release new products constantly. I say real because a lot of the so-called “high-end” audio manufacturers are anything but real bushiness (unless two guys in a garage, with zero overhead, is considered real in your mind).

A point in time hardly makes a point. Plus both the M3 and S3/S5 MK2 are their current products, no?

I am not criticizing his business model. Quite the contrary, as a business model, he knows exactly what he is doing and has his dealers, their customers and reviewers jumping through hoops with every new speaker and/or upgrade. No doubt the most successful high end manufacturer of high end audio and kudos to him as no one understands the mind of this crazy audiophile hobby of ours. Also, I don't question the quality of his products; maybe just the hyperbole associated with each release where he is not alone.

 

[walesi]

Ah..... Kuoppis, bad news.

 

[Kuoppis]

Ah..... Kuoppis, bad news.

No, don’t think so [emoji3]. I think it looks like a great product, but I think it might be too close to the S3 mk2 to warrant a switch.

I might consider the M3 though, but honestly I am currently very content with the S3 mk2.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[PeterA]

A point in time hardly makes a point. Plus both the M3 and S3/S5 MK2 are their current products, no?

I am not criticizing his business model. Quite the contrary, as a business model, he knows exactly what he is doing and has his dealers, their customers and reviewers jumping through hoops with every new speaker and/or upgrade. No doubt the most successful high end manufacturer of high end audio and kudos to him as no one understands the mind of this crazy audiophile hobby of ours. Also, I don't question the quality of his products; maybe just the hyperbole associated with each release where he is not alone.

Priaptor, I agree with you that Wolf/Magico designs and builds good products and seems to know what they are doing with marketing. The company has grown and become a recognized force in the industry in a fairly short time. However, how do you know Magico is the most successful high end manufacturer? Surely their profits and success are not known to outsiders. And how do you define success? Is it only profitability as a business, or is it something else like longevity and customer satisfaction, breadth of product line, size of business, etc?

The images of racks of parts and speaker enclosures. and sheer scope of manufacturing in their large facility would seem to indicate much success, but profits seem unclear and growth has been rapid so profits may only now be available to investors. I really have no idea. I'm also not sure about your other contention that they come out with something new every few months. They have a large number of designs, but many are not changed for years. They seem to have slowly phased out the Q line and replaced it with the M series, though this is now only the third M speaker. I think the Q1 is still current. The Q3 was never revised and was built for at least five years. This (M2) is a new speaker, not a replacement for something that was available a few months ago. If you look at each specific model, very few were rapidly replaced or revised after only a few months.

I think they innovate rapidly and are slowly now settling on two distinct lines, the S and the M with perhaps 4 speakers in each line eventually. They also have the subs and theater speakers, but those Q subs have been around for a while. So has the Ultimate, now in version 3.

I have had two Magico models, the Mini 2 and the Q. Both are still sought after and remain great sounding speakers. I benefitted from sellers wanting to either upgrade or change. That robust used market is good for the owners who want to sell and for buyers who want to pay less for something of such high quality. Service seems to support older models.

I also wonder if the high number of used speakers from Wilson and Magico is simply an indication that they sell a lot of speakers. However, one does not see many older Magico models come up for sale. Is this because the owners bought them used at lower prices, really like them, and now realize that they would have to spend much more to buy a current model speaker that sounds better? I have corresponded with people who have been looking for used Mini 2s and Q3s for a long time and can't find them. I would think that a used Q1 would also be in demand.

I do think that Magico could offer upgrade paths for owners of older models, but they seem to not be interested in this approach because there are subtle cabinet changes which prevent it forcing people to buy new. This of course helps others who want the used models at lower prices.

In the end, people either like the speakers or they don't. If they do, they should be able to find something that suits their taste and budget and know they are getting a quality speaker.

 

[brodricj]

...I have corresponded with people who have been looking for used Mini 2s and Q3s for a long time and can't find them..

From what I understand, every Q3 original owner in Australia has now upgraded to M3. So used Q3 shouldn't be hard to find.

 

[PeterA]

From what I understand, every Q3 original owner in Australia has now upgraded to M3. So used Q3 shouldn't be hard to find.

Yes, but my friend only wants to buy a pair from the US. There is also a pair in Greece for sale. Lots of shipping and higher initial cost, so he has found prices are higher than those in the US.

How is your new M3 sounding and do you care to describe the differences you hear from the Q3? Over here, the price gap is huge.

 

[the professor]

I don't find that Magico changes products all the time. Since the M3 was introduced a little over 2 years ago, they have introduced the M6 and A3. Hardly a BUNCH of products. Most manufacturers come out with more new products than that. Some designers go out of business and start a new business in that amount of time.

Now it looks like they will be introducing the M1 (looks to me like the S1 size in the S series). Personally I wish it was a bookshelf, but hey . . . . they don't listen to me.

Magico in 15 short years has really took the high end audio by storm. Much respect goes out to them!

 

[brodricj]

Q3 is a fine sounding speaker, the M3 is just incrementally better all round, except for the new 28mm diamond coated beryllium tweeter which is a leap forward better. The crystallization of treble detail in M3 is remarkable.

Yes, the price gap between used Q3 and new M3 is huge in all markets. If one can't afford M3 then Q3 is a worthy substitute at less than 1/3rd the price. What would be interesting is competition between M2 and Q3 as the price difference between them won't be as great.

 

[PeterA]

Q3 is a fine sounding speaker, the M3 is just incrementally better all round, except for the new 28mm diamond coated beryllium tweeter which is a leap forward better. The crystallization of treble detail in M3 is remarkable.

Yes, the price gap between used Q3 and new M3 is huge in all markets. If one can't afford M3 then Q3 is a worthy substitute at less than 1/3rd the price. What would be interesting is competition between M2 and Q3 as the price difference between them won't be as great.

Thanks brodricj. Yes, I suspected that most of the difference would be with the tweeter. Based on my experience with the M Pro in a different but familiar system, that new diamond coated tweeter is very smooth, sweet and resolving. Incredible, really.

It will be interesting to see what this new Magico costs. If it is $50K+, that is still 250% more than a used Q3, but boy, it seems really good looking. I wonder what the difference in bass drivers will sound like between this M2 and Q3. I preferred the bass and overall coherence of the Mini 2 to both the V2 and V3, so in those cases, I did not miss those extra woofers. For me it was more about the quality than the quantity. I've only heard the M series in one limited setting and results have been very mixed based on something I can't figure out, but I suspect that the Ms are really special speakers.

 

[Skanda]

Yes, but my friend only wants to buy a pair from the US. There is also a pair in Greece for sale. Lots of shipping and higher initial cost, so he has found prices are higher than those in the US.

How is your new M3 sounding and do you care to describe the differences you hear from the Q3? Over here, the price gap is huge.

I would feel that it is wrong of me not to say this...but please please avoid that greek listing. I don't want to go into too many details as the matter is still being resolved (not on that product in particular but another deal that was struck) but unless you want to roll the dice on a transaction working out - I would stay away from that one.

Also PeterA, prior to my s5mk2 i had only ever owned monitors...so with that in mind...an m1 would really get my attention! but i would want to keep both haha.

 

[Pallen]

Mike,

Magico is in a class of their own understanding the OCD nature of the Audiophile as well as their dealers.

IMHO, an astute observation.

 

[Al M.]

IMHO, an astute observation.

Indeed, very much so. We audiophiles love to give in to gear OCD, but sometimes it is better to resist and look for improvements elsewhere. Recently I was thinking about getting the current upgrade to my DAC, or even another one perhaps. Yet instead I got much better speaker stands (Sound Anchors Signature) which, among other dramatic improvements, unexpectedly took care of some grain in certain recordings that I had wrongly attributed to my DAC. I also carefully re-adjusted my speaker position by a few inches, which further improved tone. Now I am again super happy with my first generation Yggdrasil DAC, and constantly impressed with what that little thing can do. We all tend to lust for shiny new gear, but often it is worthwhile to instead optimize what you already have.

 

[PeterA]

Also PeterA, prior to my s5mk2 i had only ever owned monitors...so with that in mind...an m1 would really get my attention! but i would want to keep both haha.

Skanda, why did you move from monitors to full range floor standers? I did the same thing after enjoying monitors for years, but now, I'm not sure I'd go back unless the room dictated it.

 

[Skanda]

Skanda, why did you move from monitors to full range floor standers? I did the same thing after enjoying monitors for years, but now, I'm not sure I'd go back unless the room dictated it.

change of pace mostly. having only ever had monitors i thought it would be fun to try something new. also my room isn't very big so there was the challenge aspect of fitting a big floorstander in there. magico sealed cabinets made that much easier and i really pushed it - originally was thinking s3mk2. it plays great in there and i know that if i move to a bigger place it'll only have more room to breathe. currently they blend in nice sound and aesthetics wise.

the other consideration for floorstander is that the gf really wants a dog. last thing i wanted on my mind was wondering whether or not the pooch had knocked over a pair of monitors while i was at work . we still haven't gotten that dog yet...but NOTHING is moving 200lbs of aluminum!

i noticed that i was missing out alot on lower frequencies with just the monitors. one of those things that now i know, i don't think my main rig could ever be just monitors now. though i do miss the airiness and their disappearing aspect. i always found them to have a more ethereal sound with voices floating and huge soundstage...but the floorstanders feel more planted. you give up some of that floaty-disappearing act to get that planted bassline and in my case the bassline feels like it's below me and voices are dead center in front of me. to put it in simpler terms: monitors allow me to feel like i'm in a world with music floating/emanating around me, floorstanders/full range let me feel like i'm floating through musical landscape.

caveat here being i havent heard raidho monitor vs. floorstander or magico monitor vs. floorstander. i've only had that pleasure with dynaudio

 

[Al M.]

change of pace mostly. having only ever had monitors i thought it would be fun to try something new. also my room isn't very big so there was the challenge aspect of fitting a big floorstander in there. magico sealed cabinets made that much easier and i really pushed it - originally was thinking s3mk2. it plays great in there and i know that if i move to a bigger place it'll only have more room to breathe. currently they blend in nice sound and aesthetics wise.

I am glad to hear you got the Magicos to play so well in your room.

the other consideration for floorstander is that the gf really wants a dog. last thing i wanted on my mind was wondering whether or not the pooch had knocked over a pair of monitors while i was at work . we still haven't gotten that dog yet...but NOTHING is moving 200lbs of aluminum!

My previous stands, though already pretty heavy, might have been a danger too, but no normal-size dog would move my new 100 lbs stands, with 75 lbs monitors on top of them!

i noticed that i was missing out alot on lower frequencies with just the monitors. one of those things that now i know, i don't think my main rig could ever be just monitors now. though i do miss the airiness and their disappearing aspect. i always found them to have a more ethereal sound with voices floating and huge soundstage...but the floorstanders feel more planted. you give up some of that floaty-disappearing act to get that planted bassline and in my case the bassline feels like it's below me and voices are dead center in front of me. to put it in simpler terms: monitors allow me to feel like i'm in a world with music floating/emanating around me, floorstanders/full range let me feel like i'm floating through musical landscape.

That's why I have subwoofers. The monitor/sub combo plays great with bass heavy music too, e.g., electronica.

I did wait until there were subs that play in parallel with speakers, not with crossover between main speakers and subs. In 2000 I read about one of the first ones that did (REL), and that, after 9 years of monitors without sub, made me pull the trigger on a REL sub back then (currently I have JL Audio). Like you, I have an aversion against too many crossovers, and I had been fundamentally afraid that a crossover would rob my monitors of liveliness (as was the case with the Ensemble Profundo system, which had been an option for my then Ensemble Reference monitors, but the combo did cross over instead of just having the subwoofer play in parallel). Of course, with a crossover to a sub the monitor can play even louder, but at what cost?

 

[Elberoth]

Someone have asked about the S5 mk 2 vs M3 differencies.

In short: the M3 is even more refined. It is actually hard to imagine for S5 mk2 owner, since the S5 mk 2 is such a refined speaker. But once you hear the M3, you will immediately understand what I mean. The M3 sounds even more natural, with a certain unforced, liquid quality to it. It images and disappears better. You offers even more HF resolution and smoothness - the M3 is probably the smoothest sounding speaker I have ever heard.

The only thing I would disagree with Mike on, is the bass. I actually think the S5 mk 2 is more accurate in the bass. It is also reaches much lower and has much more bass slam. If you are into some electronic / rock music which depends heavily on the bass lines, you may be better served by the S5 mk 2 (or jump straight to the M6).

Both are great speakers, although probably aimed at slightly different listener / rooms.

 

[madfloyd]

Someone have asked about the S5 mk 2 vs M3 differencies.

In short: the M3 is even more refined. It is actually hard to imagine for S5 mk2 owner, since the S5 mk 2 is such a refined speaker. But once you hear the M3, you will immediately understand what I mean. The M3 sounds even more natural, with a certain unforced, liquid quality to it. It images and disappears better. You offers even more HF resolution and smoothness - the M3 is probably the smoothest sounding speaker I have ever heard.

The only thing I would disagree with Mike on, is the bass. I actually think the S5 mk 2 is more accurate in the bass. It is also reaches much lower and has much more bass slam. If you are into some electronic / rock music which depends heavily on the bass lines, you may be better served by the S5 mk 2 (or jump straight to the M6).

Both are great speakers, although probably aimed at slightly different listener / rooms.

Interesting. I can understand that. In some ways I preferred the bass of my S5mk1 over my MPros. With my S5's they almost pressurized the room (which is hard to do since it's got opening to other rooms) and I thought the MPro with one more 10" woofer would do the trick but it has less bass in the power (or 'punch') region. The bass is deeper and more refined, but not satisfying for rock (in *my* room of course).