Lampizator Golden Gate

Alpinist said:
Paul,

I think Scenario 2 is a real possibility with the Balanced GG. With my Esoteric K-01 DAC, its balanced circuit is just plain superior to its SE circuit. As most owners run it with balanced circuits, this is where Esoteric put the most time and effort in designing. Consequently, almost nobody uses its SE circuit.

Ken
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This seems to me to be the more likely explanation of the two for what people are observing, but it must be one of the two unless someone can enlighten me otherwise. Like I said, I am always looking to learn.
 
microstrip said:
Mike,
How does Lampizator implement the balanced outputs - one more inverted DAC and buffer, an inverting buffer tube stage, a transformer or none of those?
Click to expand...

Hi everyone,
just a quick update: the Balanced is identical to SE except it has 4 mono triode amplifiers not two. It should not sound better on SE versus pure SE except that the power supply in BAL does benefit from differential cancellations so it becomes more stiff and solid, indifferent to even most radical musical demands. All other things are equal.
Lukasz
 
microstrip said:
Mike,
How does Lampizator implement the balanced outputs - one more inverted DAC and buffer, an inverting buffer tube stage, a transformer or none of those?
Click to expand...

Another quick explanation:

In any of our designs we never invert phase or flip phase or duplicate phase in any way, neither by opamps, not transformers or tube inverters. We always just use readily available digital mirror phase and its natural output from DAC conversion. It will run 4 signals as SET amplification through the DAC and through the amp and the two phases meet and mix inside speaker driver coils. That's the true beauty of balanced.
Lukasz
 
Hello, Gidday, Gen dobry, Yak she mash?

Pan, I hope to learn that you will do good shipment, price and support for a balanced GG to Melbourne, Australia.

Have you shipped any Golden Gates to Australia?
 
Welcome to the forum Lukasz! Thank you for joining the forum. Absolutely love your gear.
 
LampizatOr said:
Hi everyone,
just a quick update: the Balanced is identical to SE except it has 4 mono triode amplifiers not two. It should not sound better on SE versus pure SE except that the power supply in BAL does benefit from differential cancellations so it becomes more stiff and solid, indifferent to even most radical musical demands. All other things are equal.
Lukasz
Click to expand...

Welcome Luchasz,

thank you for the explanation.

I do not really understand circuit design so please forgive me if this is obvious. and your previous answer may have already answered this.

besides the benefit of differential cancellations, is the power supply 'different', somehow more robust, in the BAL version? it only has the one rectifier tube and not 2 of them.

if this is proprietary information I understand.
 
LampizatOr said:
Hi everyone,
just a quick update: the Balanced is identical to SE except it has 4 mono triode amplifiers not two. It should not sound better on SE versus pure SE except that the power supply in BAL does benefit from differential cancellations so it becomes more stiff and solid, indifferent to even most radical musical demands. All other things are equal.
Lukasz
Click to expand...

Hello Lukasz,

it is very cool to have you here. You have demonstrated some incredible ingenuity in your gear. If you have the time I would love to clarify something as well.

So if I read the above post correctly, the only difference is the regular 6db gain and from balanced and some internal common mode noise cancellation. Would it be a reasonable supposition that the stiffer powers supply you reference could be attained through a different isolation scheme in the single-ended dac since the only difference is coming from noise cancellations? Alternatively, I normally think of stiffening my PS by using different rectifiers; do you think it is possible to get to the same spot with the single-ended as the fully balanced by taking that route or is the difference to great?
 
FlexibleAudio said:
Hello Lukasz,

it is very cool to have you here. You have demonstrated some incredible ingenuity in your gear. If you have the time I would love to clarify something as well.

So if I read the above post correctly, the only difference is the regular 6db gain and from balanced and some internal common mode noise cancellation. Would it be a reasonable supposition that the stiffer powers supply you reference could be attained through a different isolation scheme in the single-ended dac since the only difference is coming from noise cancellations? Alternatively, I normally think of stiffening my PS by using different rectifiers; do you think it is possible to get to the same spot with the single-ended as the fully balanced by taking that route or is the difference to great?
Click to expand...

Hello,
the cancellation is not about "noises" but about consumption fluctuations. There is one common point where two opposite phases suck energy from. The suck varies according to the music but in opposite phase. So if one phase demands 20% MORE, at the same moment the other phase demands 20% less, hence the supply point remains fixed. Does not need to supply any more during that passage. That's the cool element in it.
 
LampizatOr said:
Hello,
the cancellation is not about "noises" but about consumption fluctuations. There is one common point where two opposite phases suck energy from. The suck varies according to the music but in opposite phase. So if one phase demands 20% MORE, at the same moment the other phase demands 20% less, hence the supply point remains fixed. Does not need to supply any more during that passage. That's the cool element in it.
Click to expand...


Ahh so the reduced fluctuation helps offset the lack of stiffness that might be present in a tube rectified power supply as opposed to say a solid state??? That would make a great deal of sense to me.
 
LampizatOr said:
Another quick explanation:

In any of our designs we never invert phase or flip phase or duplicate phase in any way, neither by opamps, not transformers or tube inverters. We always just use readily available digital mirror phase and its natural output from DAC conversion. It will run 4 signals as SET amplification through the DAC and through the amp and the two phases meet and mix inside speaker driver coils. That's the true beauty of balanced.
Lukasz
Click to expand...

Another quick one if you don't mind......

I totally get not needing to split from inception because you use the natural balanced digital mirror at the front and then go through the chain to the output of the amp, but I must admit, not having some kind of a combining circuitry (balun) at the end of the chain (amp out) makes my head hurt just thinking about it........

If I get this right, you are not using an earth ground in one of the wires to the speaker? Rather you are running equal but opposite electrical potential to earth ground on the two speaker wires and using them like a regular balanced cable?
 
I will let Lukasz respond as the creator (I am no amp guru) but I think the answer to your question is YES, however there is no need to reference to ground on the speakers terminals (floating).
 
Hi,
yes, the speaker line is isolated by the transformer, therefore it is floating, with symertical balanced signals on pos and neg wires respectively. The speakers don't have and don't need ground. The voltage there is circa 2-3 VDC only 1,5 - 2 or max 3 V against ground reference and the speakers are passive anyway.
 
LampizatOr said:
Hi,
yes, the speaker line is isolated by the transformer, therefore it is floating, with symertical balanced signals on pos and neg wires respectively. The speakers don't have and don't need ground. The voltage there is circa 2-3 VDC only 1,5 - 2 or max 3 V against ground reference and the speakers are passive anyway.
Click to expand...

Thanks Lukasz...very interesting....no ground. What initially comes to mind is electrical codes, but I take your point about modest voltage. Still wouldn't 85 watts shorted be enough amps to get some ones attention? I think it is an exceptionally eloquent approach to avoiding the balun in the signal path; I am just trying to understand why I don't think I recall ever seeing it done. (Probably because my experience is not that great.) You are one creative dude. Any one ever raise speaker warranty issues?
 
Hi,
grounding the secondary or not grounding does not change anything the slightest bit. If at maximum power there is higher voltage at the speaker line, even if the black wire is grounded the red will still "kill you". As the secondary winding is completely insulated and galvanically separated and 2,5 kVolt rated - it does not martter.
Anyhow, that's not the point. Electrically speaking the two paths of balanced in reality meet and blend in the primary of the speaker transformer. Not in the speaker .
 
LampizatOr said:
Hi,
grounding the secondary or not grounding does not change anything the slightest bit. If at maximum power there is higher voltage at the speaker line, even if the black wire is grounded the red will still "kill you". As the secondary winding is completely insulated and galvanically separated and 2,5 kVolt rated - it does not martter.
Anyhow, that's not the point. Electrically speaking the two paths of balanced in reality meet and blend in the primary of the speaker transformer. Not in the speaker .
Click to expand...


Thank you Lukasz. I want to be extremely respectful and I believe I understand the points you are making, but I do not follow the logic you are using and how it relates to the fact that I have never seen such an approach (save very low power headphone amps where it truly doesn't matter). I am sure you must be right and I am missing something so please accept my apology for being confused, but your help on this would be much appreciated.

When a speaker is wired to a power amp it is not "passive" as you say, it has all the power of the amplifier and as you point out the red wire will absolutely kill you. I agree that there is insulation around the wire and the windings to protect the user, but similar precautions take place in all of the electrical components in audio. The purpose of the ground is to protect the user from a scenario where through some improbable act of God the hot is shorted to the device. In this case the ground takes that short to earth. That is why AES takes such care in its Standards for connections to ensure the devices are properly grounded (let alone UL, Local Electrical Codes, etc.).

So if I understand things correctly, lets take an all metal speaker like Magico. Now assume an act of God shorts the red (or black for that matter in your case) to the cabinet. Since that entire cabinet is now live (i.e., no ground is available to take the current to earth) anyone touching the cabinet is in big trouble.... What am I missing?

Or more specifically: Is this approach AES compliant? Why have I never seen it used?
 
I am also interested in purchasing this product and Paul above raises a pertinent point with regards to electrical safety compliance in various import jurisdictions.

I am aware that there is an Australian distributor for Lampizator. As Australia has very stringent and mandatory electrical regulatory compliance standards, I am presuming the product has already undergone Australian Product Safety Standard Certification for importation and use in Australia, and that the product is appropriately compliance marked also.

Given that this is a relatively new product being made available in Australia, notwithstanding manufacturer/distributor importation pre-requisites apply and I would feel comfortable actually seeing product compliance markings on the box chassis with a copy of the approval certificate in the documentation before considering product suitability further.

Thank you in advance.
 
I checked with out factory, and all our amps always have black terminal grounded. I wasnt sure in the beginning.
I thought that you understood an obvious joke about killing. 25V AC hasnt killed anybody ever, even in a bathtub. Especially that as you described, if a floating circuit is present somewhere, the current will NOT FLOW because it is not closed. But I am not to educate here. If Got wanted to kill you by his "act" He would have used a more efective way.
 
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