I'm leaving high end audio...

[Mike]

I feel your deflecting a little with the auto example. Were talking stereo equipment.

My perception is most company have entry models. Look at MSB. Look at Magico. Don't Magico still Sell the A1 to A5? I honestly don't know. Mike would know a lot better.

I have at times wondered, what fills the bottom line with these companies. Is it the few sales of really expensive pieces. Or is it the many less expensive items.

As a business, oddly, they are all trapped in a cycle I can not say they started. Us people desire new. We want to own what we feel is relevant. Or the best we can afford at our budget price. Owning a piece from a company that has not put out anything new for 10 years would probably be owning something from a company that is out of business. Being forced to produce new and better requires man power ($$$$$) and capital investment in equipment ($$$$$$). Its possible. I don't know, but its possible, even with the inflated prices of equipment, many of these companies may be struggling. I don't know. Most are not public. But we have seen some collapse. Dartzeel, MBL. Aren't there more.

Being Wilson and all the hype over the Autobiography might make buyers think, WOW. This company makes the best. Then they go to Suncoast Audio and get a set of Sabrina. And maybe a use pair of Ref 250 to drive them.

Indeed! They still have the A1, new A3 and A5.

 

[u-sound]

just imho, the industry is greater than ever.
Sytems for 50 dollars to 50millions in every color and shape. Every song available by a single click for free.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

I feel your deflecting a little with the auto example. Were talking stereo equipment.

My perception is most company have entry models. Look at MSB. Look at Magico. Don't Magico still Sell the A1 to A5? I honestly don't know. Mike would know a lot better.

I have at times wondered, what fills the bottom line with these companies. Is it the few sales of really expensive pieces. Or is it the many less expensive items.

As a business, oddly, they are all trapped in a cycle I can not say they started. Us people desire new. We want to own what we feel is relevant. Or the best we can afford at our budget price. Owning a piece from a company that has not put out anything new for 10 years would probably be owning something from a company that is out of business. Being forced to produce new and better requires man power ($$$$$) and capital investment in equipment ($$$$$$). Its possible. I don't know, but its possible, even with the inflated prices of equipment, many of these companies may be struggling. I don't know. Most are not public. But we have seen some collapse. Dartzeel, MBL. Aren't there more.

Being Wilson and all the hype over the Autobiography might make buyers think, WOW. This company makes the best. Then they go to Suncoast Audio and get a set of Sabrina. And maybe a use pair of Ref 250 to drive them.

Hi Kingrex, I wasn't trying to deflect (I felt the cars were the easiest example to understand) but to be fair to your question let me talk audio.

I think you are right talking about being trapped in a business cycle.

I think trying to find that right mix of selling less items at higher margin vs. more products at lower margin is a tough one for sure.

It's only in the last 2 years in talking with many hifi dealers - and companies - who've admitted the same thing about pricing I started to change my perception: with many of the high end prices it's about an ego price war of the company merely wanting to be able to say they have the most expensive item than any other real business analysis.

It's turned into what I call "ego pricing" in many instances.

I'm not saying one pricing method is any more valid than another. Only that I think Ego pricing is a very slippery slope in which their ego's and sense of self value is often much higher than reality.

I hope that answers better. If it doesn't let me know and I'll try again. I haven't had my morning iced coffee yet.

 

[Shadowfax]

When we think of the HiFi market globally, we can’t ignore the demands of certain markets (Asia) for manufacturers to keep pushing not only the performance envelope, but the cost envelope. One particular cable company only developed the “gold” line because their regular lines weren’t expensive enough. Young Asian buyers driven to impress drive a lot of the prices we see today.

I have a lot of thoughts on the underlying message of this thread. I often ask why nobody is talking about the golden ear, reference products of only 10-15 years ago.

I hear people bemoaning the prices and I say to myself, “well, what’s wrong with a pair of Stradivari’s from 15 years ago?” Are they shit now? Did one of Franco Serblin’s masterpieces suddenly become the AM radio of speakers? Do you honestly think the ARC REF250’s, which can be had for less than $10k a pair today, just begin sucking because there is a new version costing 6 figures? You do realize, circuit designs don’t change THAT much. I’m sure the new one is great, but if we are chasing value, well…

Is the REF5SE or REF10 suddenly shitty preamps? What about the CJ GAT2? Did the Bryston 28SST2’s suddenly become dog poop? Revel Salon 2, a speaker that was on the class A stereophile list for what? 20 years? Suddenly become unlistenable? A pair of XD Avantgarde’s don’t have the finishing touches of the new version, but since when does the physics of a horn change that much? The coveted Mcintosh 2301’s are garbage now? The best Lumin ever made was the original, and it was just called “The Lumin”, later renamed the A1. I sold one the other day that we took on trade for $1200. Find me another digital product for 10x that price that sounds better. That Wolfson DAC chip was pure gold.

I could go on….but you get the point. NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY but me is talking about these “top dog” items from only 10-15 years ago. Why?

Reminds me of when any product claims to be New and Improved. You mean I was buying crap all this time and didn't know it? What was wrong with it that it needed improving?

 

[GSOphile]

Interesting question. The why is that there is no current effort to make the public aware of these great pieces. No advertising, no reviews, no forum discussions, no active dealer interest. Why is there no effort? Very few people, except those like you and a very limited select, well informed folks know how good these pieces were. And if a potential buyer of this gear is interested, how would they know (other than magazine reviews) who to reach out to for reliable information. And buying used gear is always a dubious proposition. Condition, parts availability, lack of warranty and who to contact if service is required are a few of the issues any diligent buyer would need to resolve before purchase. Bottom line. I agree there is great sounding gear made in the past but very few people are interested in taking the risk (ending up with the proverbial expensive boat anchor) and buying.

That's why manufacturers that maintain adequate repair parts inventories and continue to repair their older generation equipment have high value associated with their brand. Although I don't own them, I believe McIntosh is perhaps the extreme example here.

 

[Randy Myers]

Guys - I have to tell you how refreshing it is that we have all been able to share different points of views on this thread while being respectful.

I don't want this to sound condescending because I don't mean it that way, but well done.

THIS is what hifi should be about!

1000% agree. Thank you. I really appreciate your new prospective, so to speak. And again, nothing personal, but very much my feelings!

 

[Randy Myers]

When we think of the HiFi market globally, we can’t ignore the demands of certain markets (Asia) for manufacturers to keep pushing not only the performance envelope, but the cost envelope. One particular cable company only developed the “gold” line because their regular lines weren’t expensive enough. Young Asian buyers driven to impress drive a lot of the prices we see today.

I have a lot of thoughts on the underlying message of this thread. I often ask why nobody is talking about the golden ear, reference products of only 10-15 years ago.

I hear people bemoaning the prices and I say to myself, “well, what’s wrong with a pair of Stradivari’s from 15 years ago?” Are they shit now? Did one of Franco Serblin’s masterpieces suddenly become the AM radio of speakers? Do you honestly think the ARC REF250’s, which can be had for less than $10k a pair today, just begin sucking because there is a new version costing 6 figures? You do realize, circuit designs don’t change THAT much. I’m sure the new one is great, but if we are chasing value, well…

Is the REF5SE or REF10 suddenly shitty preamps? What about the CJ GAT2? Did the Bryston 28SST2’s suddenly become dog poop? Revel Salon 2, a speaker that was on the class A stereophile list for what? 20 years? Suddenly become unlistenable? A pair of XD Avantgarde’s don’t have the finishing touches of the new version, but since when does the physics of a horn change that much? The coveted Mcintosh 2301’s are garbage now? The best Lumin ever made was the original, and it was just called “The Lumin”, later renamed the A1. I sold one the other day that we took on trade for $1200. Find me another digital product for 10x that price that sounds better. That Wolfson DAC chip was pure gold.

I could go on….but you get the point. NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY but me is talking about these “top dog” items from only 10-15 years ago. Why?

I 100% agree Mike, but my biggest point was how does all of this affect our hobby as a whole. How can new audiophiles start when the shows and the mags show mostly ridiculously priced equipment. Years ago, people could go to B&M stores and see gear. A good associate would know how to get the folks started in a system that they could afford and still enjoy. Today a lot of this gear still exists but how do people new to the hobby get exposed? Certainly not by reading magazines or going to shows. And unfortunately, this is how people new to the hobby will probably start in their research. Many will come to the opinion that this hobby is for the 1%ers, and not for normal working people. That is very unfortunate.

 

[Kingrex]

Indeed! They still have the A1, new A3 and A5.

I think you are right talking about being trapped in a business cycle.

I think trying to find that right mix of selling less items at higher margin vs. more products at lower margin is a tough one for sure.

It's only in the last 2 years in talking with many hifi dealers - and companies - who've admitted the same thing about pricing I started to change my perception: with many of the high end prices it's about an ego price war of the company merely wanting to be able to say they have the most expensive item than any other real business analysis.

It's turned into what I call "ego pricing" in many instances.

I'm not saying one pricing method is any more valid than another. Only that I think Ego pricing is a very slippery slope in which their ego's and sense of self value is often much higher than reality.

I hope that answers better. If it doesn't let me know and I'll try again. I haven't had my morning iced coffee yet.

When we think of the HiFi market globally, we can’t ignore the demands of certain markets (Asia) for manufacturers to keep pushing not only the performance envelope, but the cost envelope. One particular cable company only developed the “gold” line because their regular lines weren’t expensive enough. Young Asian buyers driven to impress drive a lot of the prices we see today.

I see a couple things going on. And they don't necessarily point at the industry as the bad guy.

We humans are deep in many of the deadly sins. Glutony, Envy, Pride, Lust. We exercise a lot of Wrath on social media.

There is a huge disparity in wealth and many have loads and loads of money.


Manufacturer do offer entry level and hyper expensiVe.

What I see is a industry that is maybe responding to what the consumer wants. The consumer wants hyper priced items that convey status, wealth and so on. The prices to these people are nothing. Front pocket change.

Media is always about splash. We people don't want to read about boring, uninteresting topics. We don't want to read about the Magico A1. We want to read about the new latest and greatest. If magazine printed articles about 10 year old products, readers would go elsewhere to read about what is new.

Consumers do have the option to buy entry level produces at prices we can afford. We can also get used products from Mike or TMR. Most dealers take in trades. Those dealers, if the are good and many are, test the gear. There is no warranty, but you know it should work out of the box.

The problem and root of all the wining is not there is no affordable gear. The problem is we don't want to admit we are extremely fallible and don't see we are the ones driving the industry to make more and more expensive as well as driving the media to focus on the new and hyper expensive, instead of the mundane and ordinary. That we are just as guilty of looking at that expensive stuff and not getting over our own internal issues and focusing on and looking to purchase entry level equipment or used equipment that is a fantastic value and of superior performance levels.

It might be, for all our wining, we are the very reason media and forums have gone the way they have gone.

And to the point of new entrants into the hobby. Well yes, kids are not entering our realm. They are not even spending $5,000 on a stereo. But society as a whole is very into music. Concert ticket sales are very high. Streaming services show million and million of streams of music. The love of music is with the people. The ordinary person has simply not been tricked into some notion music is more enjoyable if its played on a stereo that is closer to the source or sound more like live. They enjoy it just as much on Bose.

Maybe the smart person is the one that understands there are $$$ to be made in this industry. And they go and get it. They figure out how to be a part of it all.

 

[Mr Peabody]

When we think of the HiFi market globally, we can’t ignore the demands of certain markets (Asia) for manufacturers to keep pushing not only the performance envelope, but the cost envelope. One particular cable company only developed the “gold” line because their regular lines weren’t expensive enough. Young Asian buyers driven to impress drive a lot of the prices we see today.

I have a lot of thoughts on the underlying message of this thread. I often ask why nobody is talking about the golden ear, reference products of only 10-15 years ago.

I hear people bemoaning the prices and I say to myself, “well, what’s wrong with a pair of Stradivari’s from 15 years ago?” Are they shit now? Did one of Franco Serblin’s masterpieces suddenly become the AM radio of speakers? Do you honestly think the ARC REF250’s, which can be had for less than $10k a pair today, just begin sucking because there is a new version costing 6 figures? You do realize, circuit designs don’t change THAT much. I’m sure the new one is great, but if we are chasing value, well…

Is the REF5SE or REF10 suddenly shitty preamps? What about the CJ GAT2? Did the Bryston 28SST2’s suddenly become dog poop? Revel Salon 2, a speaker that was on the class A stereophile list for what? 20 years? Suddenly become unlistenable? A pair of XD Avantgarde’s don’t have the finishing touches of the new version, but since when does the physics of a horn change that much? The coveted Mcintosh 2301’s are garbage now? The best Lumin ever made was the original, and it was just called “The Lumin”, later renamed the A1. I sold one the other day that we took on trade for $1200. Find me another digital product for 10x that price that sounds better. That Wolfson DAC chip was pure gold.

I could go on….but you get the point. NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY but me is talking about these “top dog” items from only 10-15 years ago. Why?

I'm not getting your point. Are you suggesting buying used? I think many do that. A lot of people are out there picking up used which allows those with money to continue buying new. The reason no one is talking about them they were talked about when they were new and now old news.

 

[Mr Peabody]

I feel your deflecting a little with the auto example. Were talking stereo equipment.

My perception is most company have entry models. Look at MSB. Look at Magico. Don't Magico still Sell the A1 to A5? I honestly don't know. Mike would know a lot better.

I have at times wondered, what fills the bottom line with these companies. Is it the few sales of really expensive pieces. Or is it the many less expensive items.

As a business, oddly, they are all trapped in a cycle I can not say they started. Us people desire new. We want to own what we feel is relevant. Or the best we can afford at our budget price. Owning a piece from a company that has not put out anything new for 10 years would probably be owning something from a company that is out of business. Being forced to produce new and better requires man power ($$$$$) and capital investment in equipment ($$$$$$). Its possible. I don't know, but its possible, even with the inflated prices of equipment, many of these companies may be struggling. I don't know. Most are not public. But we have seen some collapse. Dartzeel, MBL. Aren't there more.

Being Wilson and all the hype over the Autobiography might make buyers think, WOW. This company makes the best. Then they go to Suncoast Audio and get a set of Sabrina. And maybe a use pair of Ref 250 to drive them.

In consumer electronics companies got into the habit of a new model every year, the bells & whistles for CDP, receivers, etc. High end not so much. Pass Labs is an excellent example, how old is the .8 amps now. You offer a great product and make a point of saying we don't put out a new one unless we come up with something better. Magico has come up, how long did it take to come up with a new A3? IMO most high end companies don't follow the new model every year thing.

 

[Mike]

I'm not getting your point. Are you suggesting buying used? I think many do that. A lot of people are out there picking up used which allows those with money to continue buying new. The reason no one is talking about them they were talked about when they were new and now old news.

My point is this: people are complaining about this $100k amp or that $300k speaker when the $15k used Strads with a nice pair of REF250’s will sound amazing. Point: you don’t have to spend $1,000,000 to get great sound.

 

[ggdudeabides]

the $15k used Strads with a nice pair of REF250’s will sound amazing. Point: you don’t have to spend $1,000,000 to get great sound.

Given your experience, I'm sure it does. And very sad. Great sounding stuff being put out to pasture well before its prime.. Quesion is the potential buyer, how it will be marketed and who will bite.

 

[GSOphile]

Given your experience, I'm sure it does. And very sad. Great sounding stuff being put out to pasture well before its prime.. Quesion is the potential buyer, how it will be marketed and who will bite.

Takes a little research, but there's no mystery here. You can read old reviews on various magazine sites like Stereophile, The Absolute Sound, and various dealer sites that list demos and trade-ins. You can read user impressions in the category and brand folders of sites like this. You can see what's available on sites like Audiogon and US Audio Mart. Audiogon even has a blue book of used prices that you can access for a modest fee.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

Guys - sharing this as I want to show I practice what I preach about transparency.

My Ridgid vac used for sanding dust collection has died and I can't really sand with my asthma without one for my restoration projects.

I posted on my page the opportunity for a follower or company to sponsor the purchase of a new unit, and in return I would affectionately name and refer to the vacuum in my restoration content by their name. For instance "The XXXXXXXX Dust Collector" as I usually point out and identify the stuff in my vids and pics.

In my post I lin to the unit so all can see the price, and I also publicized it so the entire world would clearly see what I was doing with no behind-the-curtain-funding-deals or any perceived special treatment.

Here is a link to the actual post:


Again - I'm not posting this to brag or anything like that. I'm simply saying it's easy to be transparent about any potential support, exactly how much, exactly for what, what they get in return, and who it is.

I really believe almost no one would have an issue with sponsorships in hifi if people were simply honest and transparent about it.

 

[ggdudeabides]

Takes a little research, but there's no mystery here.

I respectfully disagree. I think it's a lot more challenging. The buyer needs (or should need) Initial specific product information such as brand, model, specs, etc. Absent people like Mike or finding someone (who you know and trust) that's been around hi end audio for 10 to 20 years, is familiar with the product and has enough personal experience who can provide an informed recommendation, is difficult at best. To do otherwise, in my view, is a crapshoot. See Post 58 for futher considerations. I trust you would not buy used gear based solely on reviews and other nebulous sources. Best.

 

[GSOphile]

A review is simply a data point. There are a few people on forums whose opinions I trust and respect. Experienced contacts are always a plus. Sure there's risk buying used, and there's seldom a transferable warranty safety net, but if you buy a good brand at a fair price, you shouldn't lose much if you decide to resell, assuming it's in good working order. Specs are often in reviews and almost always in user guides.

I am not trying to advocate for used - just saying how I would go about shopping for well regarded products on the used market.

 

[ggdudeabides]

Thanks for the insight.

 

[No Quarter]

Yup.

I know it may be semantics why I'm leaving high end audio but not audio, I lay out the rational here along with how in my personal OPINION high end audio has abandoned the average listener to the detriment of the hobby:

Read the full free article here:

https://greekaudiogeek.substack.com/p/goodbye-high-end-audio-i-wont-miss?r=8nhc5i


View attachment 36351

Great stuff, I particularly liked the part about small one man operations, who care about you as a customer.
I have found just that in Chatham Ontario, Absolute sound. He is a one man store, no employees and his main source of electronics he sells comes from Angela Gilbert Yeung.
I now own several of Gilbert’s works of art, and feel like I have arrived at my destination.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

Great stuff, I particularly liked the part about small one man operations, who care about you as a customer.
I have found just that in Chatham Ontario, Absolute sound. He is a one man store, no employees and his main source of electronics he sells comes from Angela Gilbert Yeung.
I now own several of Gilbert’s works of art, and feel like I have arrived at my destination.

Thank you.

Gilbert is very talented. I used to own his Blue Circle stuff 25 years ago.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

PS. I was asked if that is my actual workbench or AI.

It is 100% an actual picture of and 100% exactly my real work bench.