I'm leaving high end audio...

[Mike]

I feel your deflecting a little with the auto example. Were talking stereo equipment.

My perception is most company have entry models. Look at MSB. Look at Magico. Don't Magico still Sell the A1 to A5? I honestly don't know. Mike would know a lot better.

I have at times wondered, what fills the bottom line with these companies. Is it the few sales of really expensive pieces. Or is it the many less expensive items.

As a business, oddly, they are all trapped in a cycle I can not say they started. Us people desire new. We want to own what we feel is relevant. Or the best we can afford at our budget price. Owning a piece from a company that has not put out anything new for 10 years would probably be owning something from a company that is out of business. Being forced to produce new and better requires man power ($$$$$) and capital investment in equipment ($$$$$$). Its possible. I don't know, but its possible, even with the inflated prices of equipment, many of these companies may be struggling. I don't know. Most are not public. But we have seen some collapse. Dartzeel, MBL. Aren't there more.

Being Wilson and all the hype over the Autobiography might make buyers think, WOW. This company makes the best. Then they go to Suncoast Audio and get a set of Sabrina. And maybe a use pair of Ref 250 to drive them.

Indeed! They still have the A1, new A3 and A5.

 

[u-sound]

just imho, the industry is greater than ever.
Sytems for 50 dollars to 50millions in every color and shape. Every song available by a single click for free.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

I feel your deflecting a little with the auto example. Were talking stereo equipment.

My perception is most company have entry models. Look at MSB. Look at Magico. Don't Magico still Sell the A1 to A5? I honestly don't know. Mike would know a lot better.

I have at times wondered, what fills the bottom line with these companies. Is it the few sales of really expensive pieces. Or is it the many less expensive items.

As a business, oddly, they are all trapped in a cycle I can not say they started. Us people desire new. We want to own what we feel is relevant. Or the best we can afford at our budget price. Owning a piece from a company that has not put out anything new for 10 years would probably be owning something from a company that is out of business. Being forced to produce new and better requires man power ($$$$$) and capital investment in equipment ($$$$$$). Its possible. I don't know, but its possible, even with the inflated prices of equipment, many of these companies may be struggling. I don't know. Most are not public. But we have seen some collapse. Dartzeel, MBL. Aren't there more.

Being Wilson and all the hype over the Autobiography might make buyers think, WOW. This company makes the best. Then they go to Suncoast Audio and get a set of Sabrina. And maybe a use pair of Ref 250 to drive them.

Hi Kingrex, I wasn't trying to deflect (I felt the cars were the easiest example to understand) but to be fair to your question let me talk audio.

I think you are right talking about being trapped in a business cycle.

I think trying to find that right mix of selling less items at higher margin vs. more products at lower margin is a tough one for sure.

It's only in the last 2 years in talking with many hifi dealers - and companies - who've admitted the same thing about pricing I started to change my perception: with many of the high end prices it's about an ego price war of the company merely wanting to be able to say they have the most expensive item than any other real business analysis.

It's turned into what I call "ego pricing" in many instances.

I'm not saying one pricing method is any more valid than another. Only that I think Ego pricing is a very slippery slope in which their ego's and sense of self value is often much higher than reality.

I hope that answers better. If it doesn't let me know and I'll try again. I haven't had my morning iced coffee yet.

 

[Shadowfax]

When we think of the HiFi market globally, we can’t ignore the demands of certain markets (Asia) for manufacturers to keep pushing not only the performance envelope, but the cost envelope. One particular cable company only developed the “gold” line because their regular lines weren’t expensive enough. Young Asian buyers driven to impress drive a lot of the prices we see today.

I have a lot of thoughts on the underlying message of this thread. I often ask why nobody is talking about the golden ear, reference products of only 10-15 years ago.

I hear people bemoaning the prices and I say to myself, “well, what’s wrong with a pair of Stradivari’s from 15 years ago?” Are they shit now? Did one of Franco Serblin’s masterpieces suddenly become the AM radio of speakers? Do you honestly think the ARC REF250’s, which can be had for less than $10k a pair today, just begin sucking because there is a new version costing 6 figures? You do realize, circuit designs don’t change THAT much. I’m sure the new one is great, but if we are chasing value, well…

Is the REF5SE or REF10 suddenly shitty preamps? What about the CJ GAT2? Did the Bryston 28SST2’s suddenly become dog poop? Revel Salon 2, a speaker that was on the class A stereophile list for what? 20 years? Suddenly become unlistenable? A pair of XD Avantgarde’s don’t have the finishing touches of the new version, but since when does the physics of a horn change that much? The coveted Mcintosh 2301’s are garbage now? The best Lumin ever made was the original, and it was just called “The Lumin”, later renamed the A1. I sold one the other day that we took on trade for $1200. Find me another digital product for 10x that price that sounds better. That Wolfson DAC chip was pure gold.

I could go on….but you get the point. NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY but me is talking about these “top dog” items from only 10-15 years ago. Why?

Reminds me of when any product claims to be New and Improved. You mean I was buying crap all this time and didn't know it? What was wrong with it that it needed improving?

 

[GSOphile]

Interesting question. The why is that there is no current effort to make the public aware of these great pieces. No advertising, no reviews, no forum discussions, no active dealer interest. Why is there no effort? Very few people, except those like you and a very limited select, well informed folks know how good these pieces were. And if a potential buyer of this gear is interested, how would they know (other than magazine reviews) who to reach out to for reliable information. And buying used gear is always a dubious proposition. Condition, parts availability, lack of warranty and who to contact if service is required are a few of the issues any diligent buyer would need to resolve before purchase. Bottom line. I agree there is great sounding gear made in the past but very few people are interested in taking the risk (ending up with the proverbial expensive boat anchor) and buying.

That's why manufacturers that maintain adequate repair parts inventories and continue to repair their older generation equipment have high value associated with their brand. Although I don't own them, I believe McIntosh is perhaps the extreme example here.

 

[Randy Myers]

Guys - I have to tell you how refreshing it is that we have all been able to share different points of views on this thread while being respectful.

I don't want this to sound condescending because I don't mean it that way, but well done.

THIS is what hifi should be about!

1000% agree. Thank you. I really appreciate your new prospective, so to speak. And again, nothing personal, but very much my feelings!

 

[Randy Myers]

When we think of the HiFi market globally, we can’t ignore the demands of certain markets (Asia) for manufacturers to keep pushing not only the performance envelope, but the cost envelope. One particular cable company only developed the “gold” line because their regular lines weren’t expensive enough. Young Asian buyers driven to impress drive a lot of the prices we see today.

I have a lot of thoughts on the underlying message of this thread. I often ask why nobody is talking about the golden ear, reference products of only 10-15 years ago.

I hear people bemoaning the prices and I say to myself, “well, what’s wrong with a pair of Stradivari’s from 15 years ago?” Are they shit now? Did one of Franco Serblin’s masterpieces suddenly become the AM radio of speakers? Do you honestly think the ARC REF250’s, which can be had for less than $10k a pair today, just begin sucking because there is a new version costing 6 figures? You do realize, circuit designs don’t change THAT much. I’m sure the new one is great, but if we are chasing value, well…

Is the REF5SE or REF10 suddenly shitty preamps? What about the CJ GAT2? Did the Bryston 28SST2’s suddenly become dog poop? Revel Salon 2, a speaker that was on the class A stereophile list for what? 20 years? Suddenly become unlistenable? A pair of XD Avantgarde’s don’t have the finishing touches of the new version, but since when does the physics of a horn change that much? The coveted Mcintosh 2301’s are garbage now? The best Lumin ever made was the original, and it was just called “The Lumin”, later renamed the A1. I sold one the other day that we took on trade for $1200. Find me another digital product for 10x that price that sounds better. That Wolfson DAC chip was pure gold.

I could go on….but you get the point. NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY but me is talking about these “top dog” items from only 10-15 years ago. Why?

I 100% agree Mike, but my biggest point was how does all of this affect our hobby as a whole. How can new audiophiles start when the shows and the mags show mostly ridiculously priced equipment. Years ago, people could go to B&M stores and see gear. A good associate would know how to get the folks started in a system that they could afford and still enjoy. Today a lot of this gear still exists but how do people new to the hobby get exposed? Certainly not by reading magazines or going to shows. And unfortunately, this is how people new to the hobby will probably start in their research. Many will come to the opinion that this hobby is for the 1%ers, and not for normal working people. That is very unfortunate.