HT vs Home Audio System

Calvin said:
He has three audio systems, one like you describe (but 6, not 4 speakers and no center). While he doesn’t like his equipment described on the WWW I will merely say that each of his systems is exceptional.
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Very cool, do you remember what processor was being used for the 2 rears and sides? Only one very specific one does the type of decorrelation required for music to be like the ones I'm referring to.

Calvin said:
My favorite genre of music has changed thru the years. If you would have asked me 10 years ago what my absolute favorite was I would have said classic rock music. I still have a lot of rock albums. Then when I moved to Naples I began listening to my friend’s jazz collections. My music tastes gradually changed. Now I enjoy jazz - esp female vocals the best.
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I think pretty much all of us who have listened to music most our lives evolve through genres. I like them all, but have a tendency for mainly classical lately, which might explain why I found plain archaic frontal plane waves stereo lacking, even with the very best speakers, including some with variable directivity to specifically increase soundstage size commensurate with symphonic etc. As always, preferences vary.
Hopefully you new system gets you where you desire.

cheers,

AJ
 
Marslo said:
PS Sorry , I can’t cancel this post, just wanted to add the picture from the main HT system to the previous post , „Irishman” from Netflix, last weekend, the movie is a masterpiece imho.
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Just watched it good movie. If you liked it. Casino with De Niro and Pesci is along the same lines and also quite good.
 
Mike said:
Mine at home is a blended system. I have a 100 inch Stewart screen which is built up into the ceiling and comes down when I flick a switch and a Sony SXRD projector (VERY old!). My home theater processor from the 90’s stopped working in May. I just now purchased a B stock Integra something or another. My Hegel rep also sells Integra. I waited for my wife to give me shit for not having our home theater working (she wanted to watch movies during Thanksgiving) before getting one. I use an old Bryston 9BSST2 amp for 5 of the 7 channels and some crappy Marantz amp for the height speakers. I don’t have a center channel, but may get an MBL 126C or 120C. I’m just not into TV/Movies as you can tell. I would much rather spin a record or listen to an album. I have it to appease Management.
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To each to their own.
 
AJ Soundfield said:
Very cool, do you remember what processor was being used for the 2 rears and sides? Only one very specific one does the type of decorrelation required for music to be like the ones I'm referring to.
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No I don't remember everything in his system. Because of my friend's privacy issues, I'll PM you the parts of that system I do remember.
 
nicoff said:
Would that be something like the MC-1?
I used to have one like 10 years ago. In fact, I think that it might be around in the attic somewhere.
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Yes, MC-1 should have L7 Music.
then you want 2 band limited upward facing cone rear speakers
 
This is helpful https://www.linkwitzlab.com/surround_system.htm
Levels and spectrum of the diffuse like field are critical for it to be positive or negative. Although decorrelated and next to impossible to hear anywhere away from (rear) speakers, there is extra spectral energy being added to the room, which affects the timbre of the perceived sound.
As Linkwitz notes, the best way to "hear" it when levels are optimized, is to turn it off
 
I did some serious experimenting this weekend with the ideas AJ is talking about here regarding 2+CH systems. Since I have an Anthem AVM 60 pre/pro powering a Monoprice Monolith 7 amp for home theater completely isolated from my Luxman/Backert Labs/Volti system, it took some work to get things set up and while it's still a little Frankenstein I think I have achieved some excellent results.

Quick recap on my existing system - my 2 channel primary system uses a Innuos Zen MK III -> Chord MScaler -> Hugo TT2 digital front end, going into a Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme preamp, which sends dual outputs to 2 Luxman MQ-88uSE tube amps "mono strapped" in parallel to power 1 Volti Rival per side. There have been no subwoofers or surround processing being used in this system.

My HT system is an Anthem AVM 60 which includes the very capable Anthem Room Correction Genesis processing, running into a 7 channel Monolith 7 HT amp and sending sub outs to 4 powered subwoofers. I run the HT in 5.4 with Klipsch Heresy IIIs for the L/R, Klipsch RP-450C in the center, and Monitor Audio Studio surround speakers.

Anthem also includes very discrete surround/upmixing algorithms called "Anthem:Music" and "Anthem:Cinema" which is very good about passing certain information into surround channels based on EQ filters. It is NOT the old fashioned upmixing found in AVRs of yore where it just added delay and put the front channels into the surround channels, etc. It's very effective for 2 channel processing.

Within ARC Genesis it is possible to set up different measurements and different profiles independently of each other. So the idea was to keep my 2 channel system isolated to the all-tube system and simply "add" the power of the Anthem processing to the subwoofers and surround channels. Although it is possible to run this "ambience" into center channel, multiple surrounds, Atmos speakers, etc I disabled all but the rear surrounds for this experiment. I did not want the front sound field to be changed in any way from the analog tube system.

I set up 2 different measurements - one for the Rivals as the front speakers, measured from the sweet spot of my listening chair, and the other for the Heresy IIIs measured from around the room for home theater processing. I set up the profile for the Rival measurements as L, R, Sur L, Sur, R, subwoofers (no center speaker) and set a 2nd 5 channel profile for the Heresy III. This allowed ARC to measure the response of the Rivals and subwoofers combined and set a 4th order high pass slope for the subwoofers, with max EQ up to 500 Hz. Then the second set of measurements was done with the Heresy IIIs coming out of the Monolith, with a flat high pass slope, both measurements were EQ'd up to 200 Hz on the sub. I EQ'd the surrounds to 12kHz on the first 2 channel measurement, and on the HT measurements I EQ'd the Heresy and center channels to 12kHz as well.

Now I have sent the RCA outs of the Hugo TT2 into the Anthem Analog input, and the XLR outs into the Rhumba Extreme preamp. So both preamps are getting the identical signal from the TT2 (although the Anthem redigitizes it when passing audio through ARC Genesis). The Rivals play the 2 channel music from the Rhumba Extreme/Luxman MQ88 signal chain just like they normally would. But the Anthem processes the signal based on the measurements from the Rivals, subs, and surrounds.

It is not an ideal arrangement - in order to NOT have music coming out of the Heresy IIIs at the same time as the Rivals I have to unplug the Heresy IIIs from the Monolith when listening to 2 channel music. The Anthem is sending EQ'd bass out of the sub pre-out into the 4 subwoofers, optimally EQ'd and timed for the measurements that were taken with the Rivals. However ARC Genesis assumes the Rivals are being EQ'd up to 500Hz, which is not the case, since they are getting a "virgin" signal from the Luxmans.

This also presents the issue of having 2 volume controls, one on the subs/surrounds, and one for the main system. This is actually a benefit in some ways, as I'm able to adjust and volume match the surrounding "ambience" and subwoofers with the mains separately. I've found that getting the volume on the Anthem right to the point where it's not noticeable unless I mute the Anthem and the "magic" disappears is the sweet spot for this.

Despite these limitations (and the fact that some may argue this is not very "audiophile" at all), the sound is MUCH improved. There is a weight now in the presence of the music that goes beyond the subs into the higher registers of the Rivals, because the bass from the subwoofers better anchors the entire frequency chain through the Rivals.

As well, there is now that "2+" channel magic that allows that extra tiny bit of atmosphere from the EQ'd "ambiance" coming out of the rear surrounds. I believe the pleated ribbon tweeters in the Monitor Audio Studios really allow this processing to shine, giving more air and dimension to the ambience. This is NOT 4 channel music. What I am hearing through my main system is pure-unadulterated analog signal. However, the 2 surround channels add undeniable "in the room" atmosphere that really enhances the audio (especially when listening to live recordings and very spare piano/vocal recordings). The "hall" simply becomes your room, and the speakers do disappear.

Overall I'm really happy with the results, even if I do have to plug the Heresy IIIs back in whenever we watch a movie (which is rarely these days).
 
Thanks for experimenting JSQT, it sounds like you nailed it first try! Bravo.
Yes, *if*/when optimized, you cannot "hear" the effect, until you turn it off. As you noticed, the sound seems to collapse to a flatter more 2D type presentation, despite NOT sounding like that all the times you listened pure "stereo" previously, where it sounded more 3D.
There is an entire chapter on human binaural adaptation in Dr Tooles books were one interested in why.
The best feature of all, is that there is an "off" selection, where on can revert back to "pure" stereo whenever the music calls for this. I almost never use 2+ with rock/electronic type music (though of course one could, based on own preference).
Congrats on becoming a heretic ;-)

cheers,

AJ
 
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