How to treat bad buyer in transaction?

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KeithR

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Guys, never in a decade has this happened to me, so would like your opinion. I sold a Dac through Audiogon; buyer paid via PayPal. Received a call from him the evening it arrived claiming a leaky battery in the remote and that he needs to send the entire unit back. I told him I'm happy to look at the condition of the remote (send pics) and send him a new one as necessary but that I can't give a refund. Furthermore, he let me know he had another dac that was arriving and he "needed to move on" with a dac shootout taking place the next day. I walked him through how his new dac can be used without remote, but he didn't seem to care. This is when things start to be amiss and it sounds like buyers regret or he was trying to shaft me. I sent him a note on Audiogon mail to try a little white vinegar and a new battery, as that is what is recommended by most in these situations.

Buyer never sent me the pictures or responded to Audiogon mail. He went straight to PayPal to have the charges disputed. Now my PayPal account is frozen until the dispute lifts. Audiogon suggests I go through their dispute process, but funny how this guy didn't file a dispute with them. Also turns out his Paypal and Audiogon emails are different--hmm. I'm kicking myself as when he bought the unit, he didn't pay for 2 days and I had to relist the item (which he then repurchased).

What would you do? He allegely shipped the unit back to me without permission according to PayPal, so I'm trying to figure out if I should just refuse delivery, how to respond to PayPal with, etc.

Thanks,

KeithR

 
Something stinks about this. PayPal normally requires some type of proof that the goods are not as advertised and it doesn't appear that he provided any proof. Have you contacted PayPal to see what their guidance is to you?
 
PayPal called this guy a "stickler"

this is what PayPal has in dispute comments:


  • 6/17/2015 11:27 PDT - Buyer: byr got the package, it was not what he wanted so he took package back to fedex and sent back to seller and wants his money back
 
Keith - this sounds eerily similar to a situation I had in December. I sold a Luxman amp to a guy. Almost immediately after shipping it, he started asking me if I had heard the 900 model of the Luxman (this was the 600). He then wrote me again with a couple of raving reviews, one where the reviewer says how much better the 900 is than the 600.

The guy had it for about 2 weeks and then wrote me to say "if I move the amp quickly back and forth, I think there might a loose screw or nut inside." I wrote him back "then don't shake it back and forth! In all seriousness, just take the top off and have a look. If there is a piece of lose solder or something, it will fall out." He refused, he wanted his money back. At this point he filed a claim and I CALLED (that's the key) Paypal to explain what was going on here - BUYER'S REMORSE!

The saga continued. I told him that if he was not competent enough to remove a few screws, that I would pay for him to take it to a technician. I arranged for a local technician to take a look. He CLAIMS he took it over and the guy had a look. He said its damaged and wanted his money back. A lose screw/piece of solder caused damage? When I called the technician, he had no record of the guy ever bringing it over. I told the guy to send me a copy of the receipt for the technician and I would happily reimburse him as promised. The receipt never materialized.

At the end of the day, that's where this ended. I'm afraid Paypal's policies have become WAY too buyer protective and they fail to see that some unscrupulous individuals will be using paypal to "demo" equipment because the refund/buyer protection policies of Paypal have become so incredibly liberal.

So, what should you do? CALL Paypal. Through your account you can call them and have a one time passcode. Explain your case. I've found them to be much wiser to these things of late. Second, avoid paypal. Check or wire or no go.
 
Thanks, Mike. This crap is so wrong.

I talked to PayPal and explained my position and they said to write all of it down on the response and send it in. They could not find any pictures of damage or anything else submitted by the buyer.
 
Keith,

If you need a witness for the Paypal case, I'll help. In writing, if needed...


alex
 
Yes I've sold many items on Agon--and my adage is Paypal ONLY on items I'm sure are 100% checked by me --and I've had contact with the buyers and established the rapport should any thing go awry

There is a "gut feeling" also I feel comes into play--you sort of can judge reaction from correspondence /etc with your buyer--if something doesn't feel right-- stop the transaction.

I ONLY allow bank to bank transfer 90% of the time definitely on big ticket items --never had anyone question that --yet!

I agree though things don't always got to plan and I feel for those times--yes the dreaded Paypal is heavily weighted in the buyer favour

I still get the wobblies when my buyer chooses PP but hey--it has its purpose

Good Luck Keith mate --hope it works out for ya!

Bruce
 
thanks gentlemen, will see what happens. i usually only take bank transfer or certified check as well, but the new a'gon has basically forced paypal transactions.
 
If you don't take PayPal a lot of people will not deal will you. I know I'd be reluctant to send thousands of dollars direct to someone with no middle man (PayPal). I'd have to know you to do that.

As for the OP problem, I'd file a complaint with PayPal about this guy and eventually he will be cut off by them. Other than that I'd take the unit back and resell it. Totally sux and totally unfair, but there's no real recourse for you. The only comfort is that this type of buyer is still the exception. Did the buyer have good feedback?
 
skolis said:
Not familiar with this..... can you provide info/details/explanation? thx
Click to expand...

This is a bank wire transfer from the buyer's bank account to the seller's bank account. Almost every bank with do this and it's the best way to go if you are dealing with a buyer from another country because the funds are transferred almost immediately. There is usually a small fee involved.

Ken
 
Wire transfers I do them all the time no big deal.

As for the buyer take the unit back refund move on not worth the fight

Pay pal , Visa and all the rest are of no help selling on line is not worth it to me

I do not even look at agon any more

bad sellers bad buyers not worth it to me
 
skolis said:
Not familiar with this..... can you provide info/details/explanation? thx
Click to expand...


If selling big ticket items--say 3k and over I always specify Bank to Bank Transfer

Yes you will get the ones that complain and will not follow up with the purchase --but I'm prepared to take that on the chin and wait for the Buyer who will accept my terms

No big deal-- either in or no sell

I have not , not sold on any product due to this clause--so far so good anyway after 15 years on the Gon

OK being premium class sale--you can do as you please re selling/contact /etc

So I send the buyer my home Email--he replies there--I send him invoice for the total amount with my Bank details --which he transfers the $$$'s into via Wire

I then remove 99.5% of the funds into a sep savings account-diff #'s etc

The Original account is for Web transactions only and sits with only a few $$'s between sales

Easy peasy

Bruce
 
Garth said:
Wire transfers I do them all the time no big deal.
Click to expand...

+1

I have successfully sold gear worth over $50k on AgoN using bank wire. I never use PayPal (even though AgoN forces you to use it, I always stipulate no paypal - bank wire transfer only. If someone paypals me the funds anyway, I send it back immediately).

if the buyer has any security concerns, I always advise to check the audio forums for my postings and also to contact the distributor that sold me the item to confirm.

So far worked for me every single time.
 
My advice. Never ship goods with any batteries. If you must ship with batteries, remove them, snaplock bag them, and tape the bag in duct tape.

Photograph everything! This includes every step of the packaging process to drop-off. Use a good camera or phone camera with flash. No excuses not to photograph 20MP to prove that the scratch was not there.

Consumer laws vary but they are generally in favour of the buyer. PayPal is buyer protection weighted because they need to engage buyer confidence which gives the seller a stronger prospect of sale. They in turn get the seller commission, seller fund retention period and also the FX margin from the buyer.

Do what you can to prove what you are selling in the advertisement. This includes detailed pictures. Not including high resolution images from all angles can be construed as a deliberate omission and misrepresentation.
 
What a crappy situation, and I hear these stories on all the sites I frequent. People are fickle and many have no integrity. Between the time of sale and delivery, they think they found something better than the choice they already made.

I have not sold anything over $500 thru Craigslist, but have sold almost all my old Machinist/Toolmaker Tools and plenty of lower priced audio gear.

I don't use anything but Cash or Bank Check for items I need to mail. I email with the buyer, I then move it to phone to make sure of who I am talking to. We then agree on cost and delivery and I wait for a Bank Check to arrive. I then ship the item out the next day, because in order for the bank to issue the check, you really need to have the funds and they are removed at time of check being issued so I know it will clear without issues.

If the buyer does not trust me, I move on and wish them luck finding another of what they just passed up. As far as I am concerned, the buyer will have my Name, Phone Number, Address so if he really wants to hunt me down in case I stiffed them, they can do so. But whatever I sell is on the up and up and I reveal all that is not 100% with any item I sell.

I know I am far from the norm when selling like this, but I have yet to get burnt by a Bank Check or give the buyer the ability to even pull this type of move.

Good luck however it turns out!
 
Even funnier- turns out he shipped the unit back to me on Monday and conveniently filed the complaint Wednesday when he knew it would be delivered. I refused delivery.

Clearly he's done this before, and I hope PayPal calls him out on it, although not very optimistic about my chances. What really happened is he had two dacs and picked the one he wanted.
 
I have not sold on Audiogon in a long time. If I remember correctly the last time I tried to sell they would only allow PayPal. I say "tried" because when I got to that part of the listing process I said "heck no".

What options for payment are now allowed on Audiogon?
 
well, in expected fashion PayPal ruled against me.

what this means is even with no proof, PayPal doesn't give a crap about seller's rights. never again
 
Sorry Keith - that SUCKS! People are using Paypal's extremely liberal buyer protection as "try before you buy". Totally sucks.
 
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