How Science Got Sound Wrong
- Thread starter MPW
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I don’t think he said 40Khz is better than digital, just stating what he’s observed in measurement terms.
Removing A2D2A process from pre-1980 recordings is the advantage of analog IMO. With modern recordings going straight to digital, stay in the digital domain.
My two cents...
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I agree that it was a statement.
But, does this capacity have something to do with a certain linearity / continuity of the sound and harmonious richness that so many refer to on vinyl?
"LPs have greater bandwidth than digital except perhaps in the bass. The low end is restricted by the tonearm mechanical resonance with the cartridge compliance. The upper end is probably about 40KHz."
LP's do not have greater bandwidth than digital, unless one is discussing 16/44.1 PCM (or MP3, MQA and other lossy codecs)
LP's do not have greater bandwidth than digital, unless one is discussing 16/44.1 PCM (or MP3, MQA and other lossy codecs)
atmasphere
Active member
One certainly has to include WAV files as digital since they comprise most of what digital is about. Advances in the last decade or two has certainly helped 16 bit digital recordings in this regard.
WAV, FLAC, AIFF and ALC are all "containers" for lossless PCM files, currently "maxing out" at 32/768 resolution (hardware and software limited; I don't know if there are actual limits in the coding for those containers)
Phishphan
Active member
.. I have a TT but it hasn’t been hooked up in 5 years since I got rid of my phono-preamp. There’s something to be said about the warmth of the sound.. but as I’ve moved up the digital ladder into a very high end DAC, I just don’t see going back. Flipping through songs on my iPad is just too easy. The only time I want to get up is to get another beer, not flip a record.
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atmasphere
Active member
There’s something to be said about the warmth of the sound.. but as I’ve moved up the digital ladder into a very high end DAC, I just don’t see going back. Flipping through songs on my iPad is just too easy. The only time I want to get up is to get another beer, not flip a record.
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I demonstrated the difference between digital and analog (using the same title and cut) for my GF and now she knows why I have a rather large LP collection- and no objections in that regard now either- she likes it when I play the stereo and I'm very lucky that we have similar taste in music.
Mike-48
New member
With all due respect, what you demonstrated was not the difference between digital and analog. You demonstrated the difference between playback of a particular digital version of that material on your digital system path, compared to a particular analog version on your system's analog path. I believe you when you say, that you and the GF preferred the analog playback. I just don't think that says anything about digital and analog playback in general.
sb6
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Mike, that's because TTs have had 100 years of R&D so 80 years in, yes 95% is understood and realized in devices. We'll be saying the same about digital in 1/2 that time, which is about now where recently available DACs that sound great will still sound great in the future.
atmasphere
Active member
Yes, if that were the only time this had happened it would be the act of conflating the media capability with the one single anecdotal experience. I've done this demo many times over the last 30 years, and often at audio shows. One of those shows (RMAF) we had the designer of the DAC we were using, which is one of the very best DACs I've heard anywhere (Stahltek, and better be good, it with the transport together were over $70K) in the room. He was playing stuff off of his hard drive and I realized I had the same thing on LP in my box of stuff I bring to shows. I offered to play if for him; after 5 seconds he turned to me and said 'digital has such a long way to go..." I've always taken his pragmatic viewpoint as why he made such a musical transparent DAC (and the fact that he was a brilliant engineer didn't hurt either).
Another standout I recall was a woman who was deaf in one ear and about 50% in the other. She was easily able to tell which was which. In this situation I was using an older Linn setup, which might be considered quite ordinary today, but it was better than 99% of what the world's population was able to hear at the time.
That this is such an easy demo to do and consistently goes in the same direction does say something. Maybe we have exceptional LP playback- many people do not (I found out decades ago that phono preamps can generate ticks and pops if you aren't careful in the design and I think that is what has driven so many people crazy, no realizing that it wasn't the media doing the ticks and pops). But whatever it is, its an easy demo. Not proof, but an awful lot of evidence. Mind you, I prefer how easy digital can be and I like the fact that its gotten so good in the last decade in particular. Enough that I 'almost' don't care which is better. I just like to play music. But its easy to arrange a demo, and I've yet to find a digital setup that really beats out the analog side, so I'm open to anyone being able to show me something new. That's just not happened (yet) so for now in my world, there is no means to show how digital is actually better, but plenty of means to show that it isn't.
This suggests to me that if the digital media is really that good, that the playback apparatus still has (for most people) a very long way to go, this for me despite having access to some pretty high end stuff. So maybe in theory its better, in practice it rarely works out. One should be careful with stuff like this because the bias can go both ways. One thing about analog, you get one thing wrong and the whole thing goes down the loo. The turntable has to be speed stable, physically dead, the platter has to have a mat on it that properly damps the LP itself, the pickup can't have chatter in the bearings or the arm tube resonating and talking back to the cartridge body, the mechanical resonance correct and so on. Once you have those ducks in a row analog really shines. With digital these days its very different- you can get excellent sound from a $12 DVD from a pawn shop driving a $125.00 Topping DAC (E30, for anyone counting). But its always that last nth degree that makes the final difference. (yes, I know Topping makes better DACs- we use a D90 in the shop. I really like that when the design is really sorted out, that something that inexpensive can have the high end manufacturers shaking in their boots. I really want music to be there for everyone.)
No doubt you have 30+ years experience of having analog sounding better than digital.
But, I get the sense that this might be changing sooner than we think. Taiko Audio, to name one manufacturer I'm familiar with, keeps making substantial technological breakthroughs in digital playback to the point where, on another forum, a user of a $50k turntable has concluded there's no meaningful qualitative difference between his analog and digital setups. This is only after a very recent and significant USB upgrade from Taiko.
I haven't owned a turntable since I was a teenager, so I can't speak from personal experience. But, as far as digital goes, I can say the breakthroughs Taiko has made in just the last year are really something. It seems logical to me that digital is likely to have an accelerated advancement path relative to analog and will likely come to equal analog's best.
Unless you've heard what digital can do - today - you're probably a little behind the curve. I'm particularly curious to hear from M. Lavigne, who has thrown his resources into the best in both analog and digital, after he evaluates the latest from Taiko. I predict he will still find his best analog pressings to be best, but that the delta has shrunk quite a bit. It's all good.
But, I get the sense that this might be changing sooner than we think. Taiko Audio, to name one manufacturer I'm familiar with, keeps making substantial technological breakthroughs in digital playback to the point where, on another forum, a user of a $50k turntable has concluded there's no meaningful qualitative difference between his analog and digital setups. This is only after a very recent and significant USB upgrade from Taiko.
I haven't owned a turntable since I was a teenager, so I can't speak from personal experience. But, as far as digital goes, I can say the breakthroughs Taiko has made in just the last year are really something. It seems logical to me that digital is likely to have an accelerated advancement path relative to analog and will likely come to equal analog's best.
Unless you've heard what digital can do - today - you're probably a little behind the curve. I'm particularly curious to hear from M. Lavigne, who has thrown his resources into the best in both analog and digital, after he evaluates the latest from Taiko. I predict he will still find his best analog pressings to be best, but that the delta has shrunk quite a bit. It's all good.
puroagave
Active member
so you rely on 3rd party impressions from people you never met whose sonic priorities and tastes in music might be diametrically opposed to yours to come to a conclusion? ("a user of a $50k turntable has concluded there's no meaningful qualitative difference between his analog and digital setups.")
I'm not "relying" on someone's opinion. I can talk about the advancements in the digital realm from personal experience. Make of it what you want. I do trust (not rely on) what Mike Lavigne will say as being worth paying attention to because he has both systems at a sota level.
mep
Well-known member
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- 5,095
There is something very wrong with that comment.
NorthStar
New member
Is humor permissible?
Digital has certainly come a LONG way for those early days of nasty Sony, Phillips CD players.
But until the fundamental problems of 1) horrible A2D converters being used by even the biggest studios (did you know Warner has been sent some of the best A2D’s on the market and didn’t even open the box because of cost?), 2) the overuse of compression which completely robs the music of it’s soul and 3) completely f’d up mastering (do you think those 24/192 files you buy online are recorded in 24/192? No, they are often 16/44, 24/44 or 24/96 files UPSAMPLED to 24/192 using again, a POS piece of equipment you wouldn’t spend $5 on), we will not get digital to a proper equal level today.
I’m not sure if I’ve shared this story before, but I will tell it again. I have this customer named Bill. He lives here in Florida. His favorite album of all time is Frank Sinatra’s, Sinatra and Strings. Every time he came in the store, he would ask me to play the opening of track one. Every time he was auditioning a new amp, speaker, DAC, whatever, he would say the same thing “how could Frank let that out of the studio? The violins sound so harsh!”
So one day, I decided to find the album online - original pressing and the MOFI pressing. I bought both. The next time Bill came in the store, I played him the digital and then the original pressing and MOFI pressing. His jaw hit the floor. He said “all these years, I thought it was the recording....”
But then he made me laugh, he folded his arms and said, “well, I’m still not getting a turntable.”
But until the fundamental problems of 1) horrible A2D converters being used by even the biggest studios (did you know Warner has been sent some of the best A2D’s on the market and didn’t even open the box because of cost?), 2) the overuse of compression which completely robs the music of it’s soul and 3) completely f’d up mastering (do you think those 24/192 files you buy online are recorded in 24/192? No, they are often 16/44, 24/44 or 24/96 files UPSAMPLED to 24/192 using again, a POS piece of equipment you wouldn’t spend $5 on), we will not get digital to a proper equal level today.
I’m not sure if I’ve shared this story before, but I will tell it again. I have this customer named Bill. He lives here in Florida. His favorite album of all time is Frank Sinatra’s, Sinatra and Strings. Every time he came in the store, he would ask me to play the opening of track one. Every time he was auditioning a new amp, speaker, DAC, whatever, he would say the same thing “how could Frank let that out of the studio? The violins sound so harsh!”
So one day, I decided to find the album online - original pressing and the MOFI pressing. I bought both. The next time Bill came in the store, I played him the digital and then the original pressing and MOFI pressing. His jaw hit the floor. He said “all these years, I thought it was the recording....”
But then he made me laugh, he folded his arms and said, “well, I’m still not getting a turntable.”