High-End Audio Faces a Reckoning
- Thread starter nicoff
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I can tell you that there are some real aholes on the Steve Hoffman forum. There are so many guys there that think that all dacs sound the same and some say that a $25 dac sounds better than a $10k dac. And they ridicule you if you say cables and audio players can sound different. They think that it is all psycho acoustics.
Dizzie
Well-known member
I gave up on that forum years ago. Is it still all Beatles all the time?
mep
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Thanks for affirming my assumption.
BendingWave
Member
I dont go that far . There is certainly right and wrong but the dogma that surrounds it doesn't work. You can put Ketchup on a Filet Mignon at Peter Luger's I don't think that is right but its your steak and your money. I have seen and heard some really awful examples of high end systems they were all WRONG in many ways but if the owner liked it then good for him.
Audio has become a selection of words that hold less and less meaning every year.
Natural, organic, musical, liquid, dry etc. This destruction of the language ( this is everywhere not just audio) makes communicating ideas almost impossible
JCS123
Active member
9 seconds average time per visit on this site and 198 on ASR could be seen as an indicator that something is a little off in the current state of high-end audio. The more I look at ASR, the more impressed I am with all of the measurements that they throw up and how the info is presented. It looks very impressive, and I can appreciate all of the work that went in to all of this testing - except for the fact that all of those measurements often have little to no bearing whatsoever on how a piece of equipment SOUNDS to me. I base this observation solely on tests that I have done on my own equipment that sounds fantastic to me but measures poorly on ASR.
Yes, testing by measurements AND listening is the best way to go - that goes without saying. But if I only had one of those to work with when considering a product, there's no contest - I trust my ears alone, and I would NEVER trust measurements alone.
An example is the new Imersiv DAC. It claims a SNR of 168 (28 bits). These numbers are off the charts, and if accurate, do indeed represent the paradigm shift that Imersiv claims. Based on what reading I have done on it, I have a feeling that this unit lives up to the hype. But I wouldn't buy this or any other item in its price range based on measurements alone and without listening first.
(Just one guy's opinion.)
JCS123
Active member
Audio Science Review.
mep
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Amir has had his ass handed to him by numerous manufacturers who disagree with how Amir takes his measurements. I've never seen that happen to John Atkinson from Stereophile. Choose your gurus wisely.
Proof: It takes just 9 seconds to realize they are all full of shit.
A long time ago, and about a test (measurement) of a power cable, I asked ASR if he had listened to the cable...
He told me he didn't need to!
I couldn't have gotten a more enlightening answer.
But this obsession with measurement and quantification is nothing more than a reflection of today's society in general, which seeks to objectify everything and excludes the “specter” of subjectivity from everything. A society that seeks to rationalize everything, pushing emotion and emotional intelligence aside, and which began long ago to prepare the ground for the arrival of AI.
And so, denying our essence, we happily bury what makes us human. I don't like it, but reality is what it is. But what shocks me is that this trend has already reached the field of art, and for what interests us, the pleasure of listening to music. Like a virus, it has already indelibly infected a large portion of audiophiles who no longer need to listen to equipment to evaluate it...
mep
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Well said. It sure has. Measurements can help determine some flaws in design and for tuning, but the ultimate arbiter is the listeners taste, room, and many other factors.A long time ago, and about a test (measurement) of a power cable, I asked ASR if he had listened to the cable...
He told me he didn't need to!
I couldn't have gotten a more enlightening answer.
But this obsession with measurement and quantification is nothing more than a reflection of today's society in general, which seeks to objectify everything and excludes the “specter” of subjectivity from everything. A society that seeks to rationalize everything, pushing emotion and emotional intelligence aside, and which began long ago to prepare the ground for the arrival of AI.
And so, denying our essence, we happily bury what makes us human. I don't like it, but reality is what it is. But what shocks me is that this trend has already reached the field of art, and for what interests us, the pleasure of listening to music. Like a virus, it has already indelibly infected a large portion of audiophiles who no longer need to listen to equipment to evaluate it...
Whether it’s wine, cars or audio, you have to experience it. There are no absolutes based on measurements.
Mr Peabody
Well-known member
This comes from the fact that gear does sound different and us trying to relate the differences we hear into words. Difficult at best. Easier if we had a standard for those words. There was an audiophile dictionary published by one of the magazines, I forget which, I lost it in a computer switch a few computers back. Chesky has a test disc where the narrator explains the word and what to listen for. There's no crime in trying to express ourselves.
There's always been hype and over selling, I guess that falls on us to discern
The below is not directed to you specifically, just don't want to start again.
Some forget the purpose of an audio system is not to exhibit perfect specs but to reproduce music. So if anything is measured it should be how close a system sounds like music. Our reference should be live acoustic instruments yet still we all hear differently and have different tastes. There will always be some subjectivity. As for me my ears will judge, they have to hear the system, not by looking at a piece of paper with figures.. The problem with much of this gear that is supposed to measure well it falls short in sounding like music. All the interviews of audio manufacturers I've read, and that's certainly not all of them, say they use both measurements and listening.
Some have as much gear as a store, some are into vintage, some reach a point of satisfaction or at least content where others keep searching, to each their, own,have fun and enjoy the music, hobby.
I am guilty of losing it sometimes, the ASR types get under my skin if I let them but you can tolerate only so much someone trying to tell you night is day and you have a mental health issue if you don't see it that way. Stay off my lawn and I will stay off yours.
I admit I don't understand the crusade of the ASR types, it's a special kind of crazy. My guess it's a need for attention. Too bad that zeal isn't directed toward something more constructive.
BendingWave
Member
Back in the day HP tried to create a vocabulary and I think that he did a good job. the words had meaning and one could attempt to have a conversation. We had many back in the day, I'm old and was fortunate to be there with HP, Arnie Nudel, MIchael Kay etc. W The Issues is the words got prostituted. Today the word like wow its musical or hey its organic means absolutely nothing. These words are used to make someone sound like they know what they are talking about. They may, or they may not but these are catch all words and phrases. It is hard to describe what one hears if we are talking in different language.
Its the same today on the news so the solution is not coming.
The great Nelson Pass said that he can design an amp that measures like crap but sounds good and he could design an amp with perfect specs that sounds like ass. There in lies the problem with ASR. Those guys all think these cheap chinese dacs that measure extremely well sound better than dacs costing thousands. And if you disagree, you get ridiculed and booted. What a bunch of hypocrites. There are plenty of their disciples on the SHF as well.
Can you imagine those knuckleheads measuring a Kondo Kagura amp? They would say it’s total crap. But you hear it and OMG, heaven appears.
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
When I was looking into getting a head phone amp I came across a Rupert Neve headphone amp.
I googled it and a review was on ASR I believe by Amir. The review on ASR literally said "it measured so poorly I did not bother to listen to it and recommend you DON'T buy it."
Of course to me doing opposite what ASR suggests is always the right thing to do. I ordered one and listened to it. Out of the almost 50 headphone amps I've owned or had here, it was the single most enjoyable headphone amp I've ever listened to.
My girlfriend's son is 30. He's the typical person his age listening to music on his phone, or in the car. But when he sits in my chair, he gets it. He's wowed. He asks me about tubes and such. I'll be leaving the system to him eventually. I'll need to teach him how to swap a tube... I think there's still a place for high-end gear in the future for the next generation.
My son is 34 and an audiophile. I got him started as a young teenager. He got all my hand me down gear including a Parasound A21 amp. Now he has a $6K Cary SS Integrated amp, Chord Questest DAC with an upgraded LPS, Rhythmik F12se sub, Wharfedale Evo 4.4 speakers (the weak link but will be upgraded soon) and about $4000 in vinyl gear.
He also likes the same music as I do
, but also turns me on to new music.