CPP
Active member
I tell ya what ya need to do. Go demo and let your ears tell ya what you want to buy. After all its your money.
Help me find a new SS amp
- Thread starter KeithR
- Start date
CPP
Active member
Feanor
Member
Well ... I'm inclined to say the "musical" is, uhmm, an inadequate description; other examples include "organic" and "liquid".
Slightly more adequate descriptives include smooth, full-bodied, holographic, and perhaps, warm. The problem, IMHO, is all these attributes are artifacts of distortion. I'm not totally against them, in fact I like them in small measure.
Once one realizes that "musical" qualities as most folks mean them are distortion artifacts that can be added on top of a purer signal, one may ask, how many places in the repro chain does the relevant distortion need to be added to create the desired sound?
Hence my line of reasoning that leads me to say you can have an ultra-low distortion, (non-musical), power amp but added the desired spice upstream in the preamp.
Randy Myers
Well-known member
Certainly true to some extent, however there is a reason that a few friends have tried and actually returned the Benchmark amplifier. Each component does add to the whole of the system, however each component also detracts from the whole of the system. Every class D I have owned have seemed to bring the system down or made it feel less musical as a whole. That certainly does not prohibit me from looking at the latest class Ds
.... I was looking and considering one just the other day actually... but every class D amp and every Benchmark component for that matter, I have had in my system has made my system sound more sterile... and without being able to actually put my finger on it exactly, has made my system less inviting sounding to me. In my non-technical terms I call it less warm and fuzzy feeling to me... just not comfortable and inviting... again to each their own... some people prefer that pure analytic sterile sound. A reviewer friend of ours that is a member of our audio club tends to lean that way.
mep
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2013
- Messages
- 5,075
It's all hands/opinions on deck.
You've picked 2 amplifiers that are very different in their presentation of music. I've owned both the Benchmark and the NAD M33 with the Purifi amp module.
The Benchmark has many admirable features (small enclosure, high SN ratio, adjustable gain, etc) but it is drearily dull in it's presentation. A huge disappointment to me as it had been so highly praised by a fellow Avantgarde speakers owner. It transpired that he seems to be obsessed with noise from his 107 dB speakers, he was overwhelmed by this amp's quietness. He overlooked the dullness of the sound it offered, particularly disappointing if using speakers such as AGs that can really offer a sparkle factor with the right amp.
By contrast the NAD is as good as I could find in my search of £5-10K amps. I bought or home demo'd a dozen, but the Purifi NAD matched or bettered all the others sound-wise and well trumped the others feature-wise.
The Benchmark is an amp where you are inclined to turn down the volume (kiss of death fas far as I'm concerned), the NAD will offer huge enjoyment if turned up!
As someone else has said, you really need to buy or borrow a number of amps and try them with your particular speakers in your own particular room. There's a surprising degree of difference between a number of "good" amps. Buy used ones and re-sell at negligable loss if you can. I bought 6 and borrowed another 7 before deciding on the NAD. No regrets. Happy to send by PM my one-line summay of these dozen amps. findings
Randy Myers
Well-known member
I do get a bit concerned about how Class D amps seemed to change so often (too often). First the B&O were all the rage, and then everybody started saying you don't want those, they suck compared to the Ncore's, and now no no no, you want the Purifi... doing a little research it appears as if there are a few names I have not heard of offering them and NAD. Not sure if other companies are. It also appears that NAD offers the M33 which seems more like a streamer/amp, while the straight power amp is the C298...
So... are other well known and regarded companies offering these? Is the amplifier in the C298 as good as that in the M33? When is a new Class D coming out that will make the Purifi amp all of a sudden be on the outs, such as it appears the Ncores are now becoming? Are the Purifi amps reliable, I mean 20-30 year reliable amplifiers like say a McIntosh or a MBL for that matter?
And one final stupid question, for purity and musicality (yes that is a term and it means a ton to those of us who care about sound performance) of say the NAD C298 match or best something like my MBL?
So... are other well known and regarded companies offering these? Is the amplifier in the C298 as good as that in the M33? When is a new Class D coming out that will make the Purifi amp all of a sudden be on the outs, such as it appears the Ncores are now becoming? Are the Purifi amps reliable, I mean 20-30 year reliable amplifiers like say a McIntosh or a MBL for that matter?
And one final stupid question, for purity and musicality (yes that is a term and it means a ton to those of us who care about sound performance) of say the NAD C298 match or best something like my MBL?
I'm not too concerned that Class D development is still on-going. Perhaps it's comparable with the rapid development of DACs the moment better sources were available than 44.1. It also perhaps illustrates how little progress is being made to improve other types of amp technology - A, AB, valves, etc.
For years Class D was sneered at in much the way digital cameras were when Canon and others brought out costly but pretty poor digital cameras that could nowhere near match film for picture quality. Over the last few years digital cameras have improved to the point where you'd be very hard pressed to find any new film camera, or for that matter a film to put into it. With Class D, things are much the same, though it probably has a little way to go before "analogue" amps are as dead as film cameras - but that day will surely come.
In the meantime, I'm happy with the latest and best Class D (Purifi's Eigentakt). As I understand it, this was developed by the guy behind Ncore and not doubt he'll improve on Purifi over the next few years. The NAD M33 builds this module under license with approved mods to maximise performance. Other less well known amp builders use the basic OEM off-the-shelf Purifi module in their amps, but I chose the M33 as it offers fantastic value with all the features you're likely to need in a single box. Previously I used the M32, another great amp that is only subtly improved upon by the M33. The trick is to buy a nearly new M33 and consider upgrading a year or so after a new Class D module is offered in an equally well spec's amplifier - maybe an M34? I bought my M33 new but with a good discount so I'll not lose much when the next generation amp becomes available. Peter
This may be of interest - Eigentakt Tech Page - NAD Electronics
Randy Myers
Well-known member
So do you think the amplifier in the M33 and the C298 are basically the same or is the M33 using a better amplifier section?
I do not care about or want all the other functions. I would truly only be interested in the amplifier.
I do not care about or want all the other functions. I would truly only be interested in the amplifier.
Randy Myers
Well-known member
Thank you, I forgot to check that list....
a.wayne
Well-known member
Does your AG use a Class D amp for the bass ? if so this may explain the synergy your having with your setup vs class A or a/b amplfiers .
Regards
As far as I'm aware, the amplifier sections of the C298 and M333 are identical. Case and feet quality, socket spec, etc are better in the Master Series M33. Price wise, if you solely want an amp, go for the C298, but if you think you may need preamp, MM/MC phono stage, Dirac Live DSP, headphone output, streamer, DAC, excellent IR remote, touch-screen LED display, then the M33 that includes all of these must surely be better value. Prices are £1700 or £3999 inc 20% VAT in UK
Yes but that's irrelevant. I bought the M33 when still using my earlier standard Duos that use Class AB amps for the bass. The Duo XD does indeed use Class D amplification and this amp includes XD software - a room correction syatem specifically for the bass only. Since it needs a pro mic and someone who knows what he's doing, I've not ventured far into this software. They sound pretty good as they are (as did the older Duos), but I plan to get a dealer with the AG measurement kit to visit and do a fine XD tune up.
a.wayne
Well-known member
No its not irrelevant, their sonic signatures are closer making them more compatible, mixing topologies are froth with these error mixing , IMO, Its best not to with amplification or loudspeakers with different driver topologies .
Regards
Regards
All I'm saying is that there was no lack of symetry when I was using my M33 Class D driving my earlier Duos with their Class AB amps. Remember that Avantgarde themselves build amplifiers for their speaker range and all their amps are AB. Since the Duos are fed at speaker-level (not a low level signal from the preamp), I guess the symetry may hold good whether the bass amps (akin to sub woofers) are D or AB.
Would you frown on a system using Class A or AB or even valve amps driving conventional speakers, supported by subs that use Class D bass amps?
a.wayne
Well-known member
Not if it works , if yours work for you then thats fine too, I’m suggesting it can be an issue ultimately and the Toobs with class D mix i have heard , I never heard one i did like, always sounding like two separate systems ..
I have heard your speakers with every possible combination known and did not like them with toobs , sounded like two sound sources much better integration with SS ..
Regards
Avantgarde speakers are hard to set up to sound their best, but they certainly can be very succesfully be powered by valve amps. If you visit AG's site and look at their Owners Gallery, you'll finf that at least half of all Uno, Duo and Trio owners use valve amps. I used 845 and PX-25-based amps for my first 15 years with AG speakers before making a decision to move to SS if I could find one that sounded as good or better. 12 amps later I settled for the NAD, although a few others were almost as good with my speakers. Peter