Hearing the amplifier

roncagg

roncagg

Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2013
Messages
116
Location
Tuckahoe, NY
There are still reviewers and listeners out there who purport that amplifiers sound basically the same when they measure similarly.

I don't buy it, and love listening to different approaches, and hearing what the amplifier designer intended and heard when assessing and fine-tuning their designs. That is one reason I like following Nelson Pass so much, he values listening disproportionately and it informs where he arrives with his final amp designs (First Watt and no doubt Pass Labs).

But how do we know we are hearing the amp as the designer did/intended? So many factors involved of course, but I think I got closer today when putting my new (to me) Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE with stage 2 upgrades into the mix. My Manley Shrimp preamp is no slouch for sure and I was extremely happy with the synergy with my First Watt F7 but I think there is just that measure of added clarity from the passive STP (even with only 20 watts from the F7 I have yet to enable the gain stage, that will have to wait until I have the house to myself...), with no perceptible loss of tone body or dynamics, and arguably better bass. It seems I'm hearing more of the amp itself. Nice!

I would be interested in your comments on getting the best out of your amp!
 
Those reviewers are wrong. Measurements do not equal sonics. Parts all have different individual characteristics and how those parts are used together matters. An amp in one system can be terrific, but in another, not so much. An amp that's also met with the wrong speaker load for that amp, can also struggle sonically.

Trial and error. That's half the fun.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Mike said:
Those reviewers are wrong. Measurements do not equal sonics. Parts all have different individual characteristics and how those parts are used together matters. An amp in one system can be terrific, but in another, not so much. An amp that's also met with the wrong speaker load for that amp, can also struggle sonically.

Trial and error. That's half the fun.
Click to expand...

For me, trial is big-time more fun than error. [emoji56]
 
If a reviewer says all amps sound the same they have no business reviewing. We know not all aspects of sound can be measured. I remember the shock when I first read that garbage idea from Julian Hirsch.

If you buy into the idea specs mean anything, then most A/V receivers sound better than any system we are currently using.

I admit with all things being the same and doing A/B comparison it may be more difficult to tell a difference between, let's say, Krell vs Bryston but put a Pass amp in the mix and it would stick out easily. Not to mention how much different most tube amps sound.

I should preface, the above should hold true for a reviewer, or, most anyone on this forum, meaning we should have experience listening to audio gear and know the nuances. The outcome of the example could be different with an average person on the street without the listening experience.

I remember walking in a high end shop for the first time with a hand full of 80's type Rock, we listened to a Krell setup driving some monster $25k Dynaudio speakers. I remember commenting my system at home had more midbass. Truth was more distortion an colorations too. The Krell amp looked like a steam trunk. The guy played the first track from Paula Cole which has some very low bass, When the frequency hit that opened the ports on those Dyn's I thought the building was going to lift off.

So, as I began, a reviewer should know better, and, if they don't, they should get another job. It's like your broker saying all stocks perform the same. Would you trust what you read from, that, broker?

My question is how could they not hear the difference the cymbals are rendered or the bass detail, frequesncy response in general?

Anyway, I have no opinion on the issue.
 
I have to agree... using the Wyred STP-SE preamplifier I have compared several amplifiers but get the most satisfaction from low powered high performance amplifiers. The Audio Research easily bested the others until I put the First Watt amplifier in my system. So much more natural, so much better imaging. Nelson Pass's personal amplifiers are amazing, and what a perfect match with the STP-SE.
 
roncagg said:
There are still reviewers and listeners out there who purport that amplifiers sound basically the same when they measure similarly.

I don't buy it, and love listening to different approaches, and hearing what the amplifier designer intended and heard when assessing and fine-tuning their designs. That is one reason I like following Nelson Pass so much, he values listening disproportionately and it informs where he arrives with his final amp designs (First Watt and no doubt Pass Labs).
Click to expand...

Tend to agree with you on this one.

For sure there are people in the reviewer community and on this forum who read a lots into measurements. In case of amplifiers, however, IMHO, they are just a useful way to check whether there are any major design flaws in the concept. And of course you can see how much current an amp can put through to the LS. But otherwise it is a bit like judging a book by its cover.

In case of speakers, measurements do tell more about linearity and any dips or bumps in the frequency range.

But in any case hearing is believing, as there still are no measurement regimes to gauge whether any gear is full or lean sounding, conveys sound colors and details, has good PRaT or images well.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
I was reading a review of the DarTZeel 458 last night and some comments by Michael Fremer brought this thread right to mind. Before sharing I must say this 458 is an amp I'd love to hear and on my dream list if I ever hit the lottery :) Some Fascinating design aspects.

"A recent (unpublished) letter to the editor argued that the reference for audio perfection is the sound of real instruments in a real space. The writer claimed that, since the art and/or science of audio is advancing, and because it is a "scientific truth" that the closer you get to perfection, the less divergence there is components, that therefore there should be less difference in sound among the components listed in Class A of Stereophile's "Recommended Components" than among those in Class B, much less Class C. This should be true of loudspeakers, he said, but even more true of top-rated amplifiers, since "they inherently have less divergence."
Over the last few years I've reviewed a number of truly fine amplifiers, including the Musical Fidelity kW and Titan, the VTL MB-450 Series III Signature, the Soulution 710, the MBL Reference 9011, and now the darTZeel NHB-458. I can assure you that, while each is a Class A performer, all sound very different from one another. We are a long way from approaching the sonic uniformity predicted by the letter writer, and that's something to celebrate.

We all bring to our listening different sets of sonic prejudices, preferences, and past experiences. We listen for or are more sensitive to difference aspects of sound reproduction. That's true for both listeners and designers, and in the case of the darTZeel NHB-458 monoblock power amp, the designer is Swiss electrical engineer Hervé Delétraz."
 
Mr Peabody said:
I was reading a review of the DarTZeel 458 last night and some comments by Michael Fremer brought this thread right to mind. Before sharing I must say this 458 is an amp I'd love to hear and on my dream list if I ever hit the lottery :) Some Fascinating design aspects.

"A recent (unpublished) letter to the editor argued that the reference for audio perfection is the sound of real instruments in a real space. The writer claimed that, since the art and/or science of audio is advancing, and because it is a "scientific truth" that the closer you get to perfection, the less divergence there is components, that therefore there should be less difference in sound among the components listed in Class A of Stereophile's "Recommended Components" than among those in Class B, much less Class C. This should be true of loudspeakers, he said, but even more true of top-rated amplifiers, since "they inherently have less divergence."
Over the last few years I've reviewed a number of truly fine amplifiers, including the Musical Fidelity kW and Titan, the VTL MB-450 Series III Signature, the Soulution 710, the MBL Reference 9011, and now the darTZeel NHB-458. I can assure you that, while each is a Class A performer, all sound very different from one another. We are a long way from approaching the sonic uniformity predicted by the letter writer, and that's something to celebrate.

We all bring to our listening different sets of sonic prejudices, preferences, and past experiences. We listen for or are more sensitive to difference aspects of sound reproduction. That's true for both listeners and designers, and in the case of the darTZeel NHB-458 monoblock power amp, the designer is Swiss electrical engineer Hervé Delétraz."
Click to expand...

as an owner of those same darTZeel NHB-458's (and listening right now) I never take listening to these amps for granted. they are an open window to musical truth and flow in my system.......and at least in my system......seems like no nuance is too delicate to be missed, and no peak too big to be sorted out.

I've always enjoyed the aspect of Stereophile reviews where the reviews are written prior to measurements being taken. I have nothing against measurements personally, as long as I never have to read them. they are 'over there' and I am 'over here'. I respect that Herve' did use measurements in design and manufacturing to assist his process where it was useful.

is there a connection between the minimal parts count in the signal path of the 458's (particularly for their dynamic capability) and (at least IMHO) their unique combination of power and musicality? don't really know. intuitively it seems likely. to me that part of amp design means that the builder had his priorities straight......at least for my tastes and biases. he tried to keep the amp from getting in the way of the music.

YMMV
 
Funny how it seems ML is the only one using 458's. I know they are expensive but you would think if they are so good more guys would have them.

Why is that?
 
Kingsrule said:
Funny how it seems ML is the only one using 458's. I know they are expensive but you would think if they are so good more guys would have them.

Why is that?
Click to expand...

well.......I know quite a few 458 owners but they don't post on forums.

and how many owners of 'any' $160k amps post on forums?

I suppose you can spin that any way you want.
 
I have to admit, I've never come across one other person that owns the 458's. I'm sure I would love to own them myself though!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
darTZeel has a relatively low number of dealerships in the US which I think plays a part in their limited number of owners here. Of course they're not alone in that position in the high end audio marketplace.
 
audio.bill said:
darTZeel has a relatively low number of dealerships in the US which I think plays a part in their limited number of owners here. Of course they're not alone in that position in the high end audio marketplace.
Click to expand...

That is very true. And while we haven't sold any 458s (yet! :) ), we've had great success locally with the integrateds. Those are absolutely crazy value for what they deliver, and I'm glad the local folks were able to see it.
 
Kingsrule said:
Funny how it seems ML is the only one using 458's. I know they are expensive but you would think if they are so good more guys would have them.

Why is that?
Click to expand...

Uh, because they really are expensive and cost multiples of what many people have invested in their entire systems? Just guessing here...
 
No guessing involved. If they truly cost $160k then I would say their market is EXTREMELY limited.... and that is being kind...
 
You mentioned minimal parts, that did catch my eye that the 458 only uses 4 output transistors per channel, if I read the review correctly, even if they are dual transistors it is several times less than let's say a Pass amp of even less power rating. I was curious how they were able to get that type of power with just a hand full of output devices. The 458 is just a cool amp on paper, glass side panels, floating circuit boards, I would love to hear the finished product.

I never heard of Tidal before going to Axpona a couple years ago, I thought the gear sounded incredible, so don't judge gear on only what you see on forums. Thrax is new to the U.S. and excellent gear, I've yet to see that in a signature.

And, the price issue was already pointed out, the Fremer review stated a price then of $135k, not sure if that's for one or the pair. Either way a small fraction of my audio budget.
 
That's part of the darTZeel "secret sauce", low parts count and few output transistors (bipolars, not MOSFETS).

There's definitely a lot of good stuff out there, and a lot of it doesn't get talked about on the forums.
 
Nelson Pass talks about the same thing, minimal amount of parts, in his personal playground amplifiers, the First Watt. Certainly different design criteria... he experiments with low power high performance. Obviously these Dart amps have a different design in mind, and for a different audience... obviously anyone who is not a 1 percenter need not apply.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top