Hanging With Andre on Saturday Part II

mep

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
5,092
I'm a little remiss for not having written this sooner. Andre paid a visit to my house on a Saturday in the middle of June and Andre didn't arrive alone. Andre had two bags with him; one was full of LPs and one was full of audio tools. You can always tell a true audiophile friend, because they do show up at your house with a bag of LPs. I fired up a pot of coffee made from fresh ground beans in a burr grinder of course, and we headed downstairs to my listening room. I tried to keep Andre in the sweet spot all day, but as I will explain later, sometimes we just had to swap places.

We spent about an hour or so listening to the system the way I had set it up with a variety of music and sources. I had previously told Andre that I wasn't getting the quantity of bass that I thought I should be given the fact that I have two subs with 14" woofers powered by 1800 watt amps. So after Andre had some time to acclimate to the sound of my room/system, he reached into his bag of tricks and pulled out a spectrum analyzer. Andre handed me a test CD which I loaded into JRiver and put it on repeat on the pink noise track. Andre took a host of measurements around the room. Andre determined that my listening chair was in the right position relative to the speakers. From there, Andre started taking a hard look at my bass response with and without the subs turned on. Andre then made a series of adjustments to the subs (phase, crossover point, and level) and we went back to listening.

We were both satisfied with the improvements that Andre had made to the subs and then Andre suggested it was time for another change. I had my Nola KOs setup close to the Pearson rule of thirds (Harry Pearson, not this Pearson) which meant the KOs were well away from the side walls and rear wall. Andre wanted to start moving the speakers further apart from each other and we started by moving them over the width of the speaker. After moving them, we sat and listened long enough each time to verify the center fill was still correct. And then we moved them again, and again until we finally settled on their current location. The Nola KOs are now about 10.5' apart from center to center and a little over 2' from each side wall. The distance to the rear wall remains the same.

Wow! To say that the soundstage took on much bigger proportions would be an understatement. Not only was the width of the soundstage much bigger, the depth increased also even though we hadn't changed the position of the speakers relative to the rear wall. And this was when Andre would get up out of the sweet spot and tell me I had to sit and listen so I could hear what he was hearing and we continued playing musical chairs (pun intended) for the rest of Andre's visit. We put on record after record, and lots of times Andre would look over with a grin on his face because of what we were hearing. I almost felt embarrassed for sticking to my dogma of wanting the speakers to be further away from the sidewalls in order to avoid early reflections and not having done this sooner myself. All I can say is that as good as I thought my system sounded before Andre arrived, it was in another league after Andre finished making the changes I described.

We broke for a late lunch which my wife had prepared. She barbecued chicken on the Weber grill, made homemade German potato salad, and fresh corn on the cob. After lunch we went back downstairs and did some more listening and grinning. Since Andre is known for his cartridge setup skills, I was afraid he was going to look/listen to my cartridge alignment and tonearm setup and tell me I wasn't within a row of assholes of having it setup correctly. Instead, Andre told me that I was within the performance envelope of the XV-1S cartridge. I think this was a polite way of telling me that it wasn't totally optimized, but it was good enough that he didn't feel compelled to reach further into his bag of tools and change anything. Besides, I know from what Andre tells me that when he sets up a cartridge, it's about a 3 hour process from beginning to end.

The bottom line is that I had a great time hanging with Andre again. It's always fun when we get together. Our tastes in music are very similar and it's fun to listen with an audiophile music loving friend who 'gets' what it means to just sit and listen to music. It's also really cool when said friend leaves your system sounding better than how he found it!
 
good times. everyone needs a pal with mad set-up skills like Andre. in fact he deserves a more prominent position at TAS if only because he can actually set-up a system. A very well-known TT mfr told me in confidence that he was at Fremer's place and discovered straight away his speakers were wired out of phase. who knows how long he was listening to it like that. it reconfirms no matter how popular or esteemed, reviewers can be flawed and ill-equipped in the most fundamental ways.
 
Very cool, Mark, thx for sharing.

I'm curious, what calculation/guidline was Andre using to suggesting a wider speaker spread? Just his ears or from known ratios or other? I'm interested as I think speaker/listening positioning is one of the cheapest but most effective tweaks, yet so tricky to do unless you spend a lot of time with trial and error.

Andre, if there are some general guidelines you can share, I'd sure be interested!;)
 
Very cool, Mark, thx for sharing.

I'm curious, what calculation/guidline was Andre using to suggesting a wider speaker spread? Just his ears or from known ratios or other? I'm interested as I think speaker/listening positioning is one of the cheapest but most effective tweaks, yet so tricky to do unless you spend a lot of time with trial and error.

Andre, if there are some general guidelines you can share, I'd sure be interested!;)

Allen-Every type of speaker is different regarding how it needs to be placed in the room so I'm not sure there really is one universal rule/calculation/guideline that fits all speakers. Andre can chime in if he used some sort of formula to determine where to place the KOs in my room. I don't think he did because we experimented until we really couldn't get much closer to the side walls of the room. One rule that holds true regardless of the speaker type is that if you spread the speakers too far apart, your center image will collapse and that is what we were listening for to make sure that didn't happen.

Carl always has a suite at RMAF so he has more room available to setup his system than the majority of companies that setup in a regular hotel room. Carl usually has his speakers set so far apart they are in different zip codes and he still achieves a strong center image. RMAF 2012 was when I fell in love with the KOs and they finally showed up at my house in late October 2014 after I pulled the trigger and bought them.
 
Allen-Every type of speaker is different regarding how it needs to be placed in the room so I'm not sure there really is one universal rule/calculation/guideline that fits all speakers. Andre can chime in if he used some sort of formula to determine where to place the KOs in my room. I don't think he did because we experimented until we really couldn't get much closer to the side walls of the room. One rule that holds true regardless of the speaker type is that if you spread the speakers too far apart, your center image will collapse and that is what we were listening for to make sure that didn't happen.

Carl always has a suite at RMAF so he has more room available to setup his system than the majority of companies that setup in a regular hotel room. Carl usually has his speakers set so far apart they are in different zip codes and he still achieves a strong center image. RMAF 2012 was when I fell in love with the KOs and they finally showed up at my house in late October 2014 after I pulled the trigger and bought them.

It's always nice to have another person with critical ears come over and listen and possibly make some suggestions. But usually it ends up costing money! ;)
 
It's always nice to have another person with critical ears come over and listen and possibly make some suggestions. But usually it ends up costing money! ;)

And I have already been trashed on WBF for posting this thread. Sad.
 
Trashed by someone routinely ignored by most of the members there (certainly by me, and most of the serious listeners based on their responses - or nonresponses - to his posts), and as you noted he didn't even get his details correct.
 
attachment.php








ImageUploadedByTapatalk1437264395.845176.jpg


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Trashed by someone routinely ignored by most of the members there (certainly by me, and most of the serious listeners based on their responses - or nonresponses - to his posts), and as you noted he didn't even get his details correct.

Rob-I appreciate the fact that you get it. Thanks.
 
Send my regards to Dre Mark. That is one dude I've always liked.

Jack-Will do. I feel fortunate to be able to call Andre a friend. Andre is very soft spoken, but when he talks, it will be in your best interest to listen.
 
MEP -

Sounds like a great day with Andre. Glad your system is now performing to your expectations.

By the way, I listened to the KOs at RMAF as well. They sounded terrific in Carl's room. They were being driven by ARC gear. I think the KOs are a great speaker - specially at their price point.
 
Mike-I do think the KOs represent the sweet spot in Carl's lineup. In today's world, I think they represent a lot of bang for the buck. They are as Carl refers to them a mini line array. You get 10 drivers per speaker and they do sound like a line array. The Ref 75 loafs along because of the efficiency of the KOs. The meters on the Ref 75 are reading average power and not peak power which can be a bit deceiving if you don't understand the difference. However, what the meters do tell you is how little power you are using on average. 2-3 watts is pretty common in my system, but those are 2-3 very loud sounding watts of power.

I fell in love with the Nola KOs at RMAF 2012 when Carl was displaying them with the ARC Ref 5SE and the ARC Ref 75. I found myself coming back to Carl's room time and time again because there was something very right about the sound he was getting in his suite even though Carl was using an ARC CD player (CD-8 I believe), and I'm not a super fan of digital in general and RBCD in particular. I'm sure it also didn't hurt that Carl was using over $40K of Nordost wire either.

So, it's no mere coincidence that I ended up with the combo of the REF 5SE, Ref 75, and the Nola KOs. If you love the sound of a pair of speakers and you heard them with the gear the designer used to bring them to life, it's hard to separate that combo out. It also helps when you are a fan of ARC and you have owned as much different ARC gear as I have over the years (primarily their amps) and you already have solid faith in them. It was certainly no leap of faith for me to return to ARC after I bought the KOs. It took awhile for everything to come together, but by October 2014 my current system was in place except for the Viero speaker cables which came later.
 
I'm a little remiss for not having written this sooner. Andre paid a visit to my house on a Saturday in the middle of June and Andre didn't arrive alone. Andre had two bags with him; one was full of LPs and one was full of audio tools. You can always tell a true audiophile friend, because they do show up at your house with a bag of LPs. I fired up a pot of coffee made from fresh ground beans in a burr grinder of course, and we headed downstairs to my listening room. I tried to keep Andre in the sweet spot all day, but as I will explain later, sometimes we just had to swap places.

We spent about an hour or so listening to the system the way I had set it up with a variety of music and sources. I had previously told Andre that I wasn't getting the quantity of bass that I thought I should be given the fact that I have two subs with 14" woofers powered by 1800 watt amps. So after Andre had some time to acclimate to the sound of my room/system, he reached into his bag of tricks and pulled out a spectrum analyzer. Andre handed me a test CD which I loaded into JRiver and put it on repeat on the pink noise track. Andre took a host of measurements around the room. Andre determined that my listening chair was in the right position relative to the speakers. From there, Andre started taking a hard look at my bass response with and without the subs turned on. Andre then made a series of adjustments to the subs (phase, crossover point, and level) and we went back to listening.

We were both satisfied with the improvements that Andre had made to the subs and then Andre suggested it was time for another change. I had my Nola KOs setup close to the Pearson rule of thirds (Harry Pearson, not this Pearson) which meant the KOs were well away from the side walls and rear wall. Andre wanted to start moving the speakers further apart from each other and we started by moving them over the width of the speaker. After moving them, we sat and listened long enough each time to verify the center fill was still correct. And then we moved them again, and again until we finally settled on their current location. The Nola KOs are now about 10.5' apart from center to center and a little over 2' from each side wall. The distance to the rear wall remains the same.

Wow! To say that the soundstage took on much bigger proportions would be an understatement. Not only was the width of the soundstage much bigger, the depth increased also even though we hadn't changed the position of the speakers relative to the rear wall. And this was when Andre would get up out of the sweet spot and tell me I had to sit and listen so I could hear what he was hearing and we continued playing musical chairs (pun intended) for the rest of Andre's visit. We put on record after record, and lots of times Andre would look over with a grin on his face because of what we were hearing. I almost felt embarrassed for sticking to my dogma of wanting the speakers to be further away from the sidewalls in order to avoid early reflections and not having done this sooner myself. All I can say is that as good as I thought my system sounded before Andre arrived, it was in another league after Andre finished making the changes I described.

We broke for a late lunch which my wife had prepared. She barbecued chicken on the Weber grill, made homemade German potato salad, and fresh corn on the cob. After lunch we went back downstairs and did some more listening and grinning. Since Andre is known for his cartridge setup skills, I was afraid he was going to look/listen to my cartridge alignment and tonearm setup and tell me I wasn't within a row of assholes of having it setup correctly. Instead, Andre told me that I was within the performance envelope of the XV-1S cartridge. I think this was a polite way of telling me that it wasn't totally optimized, but it was good enough that he didn't feel compelled to reach further into his bag of tools and change anything. Besides, I know from what Andre tells me that when he sets up a cartridge, it's about a 3 hour process from beginning to end.

The bottom line is that I had a great time hanging with Andre again. It's always fun when we get together. Our tastes in music are very similar and it's fun to listen with an audiophile music loving friend who 'gets' what it means to just sit and listen to music. It's also really cool when said friend leaves your system sounding better than how he found it!

Mark,

As I've mentioned to you before, I enjoyed the visit and time listening to music. Additionally, I'm happy the setup adjustments were to your liking. Of course, we could have reverted back to the original setup if things were not.

Lunch was excellent, company was excellent, music listening was excellent, the day was excellent!

Thanks for being a excellent host!

Dre
 
And I have already been trashed on WBF for posting this thread. Sad.

You needed more graphs.

Great that you guys could get together and with Andre's help really make some beneficial improvements. But most importantly, you both had a blast. That's what it's all about.

P.S. Your homework is to quantify the enjoyment you had and the improvements made. Our ears are flawed. We need charts damn it! More pie charts!

1d9a6910fd995cc1d7f010baf2ace106.jpg
 
Back
Top