For the Frugal Audio Hobbyist...I Wonder If 80's to 2000 Era Electronics Represent the Best Value?

[Mister Pig]

When you are a pig living on the farm with little piglets to raise, you have to be creative in your fund raising for audio gear. Perhaps you can raid obsolete farm equipment for scrap metal, fleece the chickens for extra eggs to sell, or skim the top of the milk sales....oink snort grunt guffaw oink oink..... OK now seriously.

But when you go to the used market for affordable audio gear, perhaps the good stuff from the say the 80's to 2000 represent the best value for the cost conscious audio person. In the past I owned a Rowland Model 5 and Consummate pre-amp that cost about $2.5K off the used market. The sound quality was extremely good, and it was a versatile combination. Recently I picked up a N.E.W. DCA 33 with new batteries installed for a very modest price. I have been listening to it this afternoon and evening, and the amp holds a lot of promise. It is actually a darker and softer than my SET amp, but it has quite a few positive attributes. The mids are nicely balanced, the soundstage is nicely formed and layered, with excellent positioning of performers. With it being battery powered, the noise floor is pretty low, and the background is inky black. In many areas it gives up very little to my SET amp. given that this amp was produced in the early 90's, I am not sure that there is much in its original MSRP that is going to smoke it.

I rescued a Thorens TD 124 from a friends garage a couple of summers ago, and I went through and spruced it up. I ended up sourcing an Eminent Technology II arm fror it, which is 80's era, and a Clearaudio Signature which is early 2000. The sad truth is that this combination is every bit as good as my main table, which is considered to be high value pieces in the regular analog world. While the materials on the ET arm are not exotic, its a very neat and tidy engineering job done by Bruce Thigpin, and its hard to fault its construction. Of course there are better arms, but when you look at what they sell for off the used market, its hard to pass up.

There are many companies that are just considered old, but not really vintage, and many hobbyists sort of lose track of. Kinergetics comes to mind, the Aaragon gear is slightly undervalued, the Audible Illusions 3 and 3A series has been somewhat forgotten also, let us not forget Bedini, the early Electrocompiant is not remembered anymore, and there certainly are a bunch of others.

Now this equipment is not old enough to get that vintage tag, or classic gear that has caught the eye of the collector. But what I hear from some of the better pieces I have encountered, there may be excellent value in the area of amplification from this time period. Analog gear also. Speakers may not stand the test of time, as I suspect those from this period have more character than modern offerings, but there are still some gems to unearth. But at the niches that reside below the cutting edge of current production amplification, I wonder if significant progress has really been made in the area of amps and pre-amps. Personally I am a die hard SET fan, so my field of interest is somewhat narrow. But when I dabble in this 80's to 2000 era electronics, I get the feeling that there is a lot of value here for the cost conscious hobbyist.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[NorthStar]

What a lovely avatar!

* I think good value is everywhere, anytime; today, past and future.

Best doesn't mean much at all because we don't know everything. And what's best for someone is someone else's worst nightmare.

 

[Mister Pig]

What a lovely avatar!

* I think good value is everywhere, anytime; today, past and future.

Best doesn't mean much at all because we don't know everything. And what's best for someone is someone else's worst nightmare.

Oh I certainly can see that point> I use some TBI Audio Millenia Class D integrated amp as my reference point of what can be accomplished with affordable audio gear. These little amps are remarkable, especially when powered off of DC battery power. I like what I hear from quite a few companies. I just wonder about the forgotten pieces that fall between what we call vintage and what is current production. The stuff that gets lost in the cracks. For instance Soundstream is reported to have used Krell for their designer on their home amplifiers, which never gained traction. If you can find one, there is a lot of value there. Rockford Audio bought Hafler, which had bought Acoustat...and in the process incorporated Jim Strickland's Trans Nova circuit into their amps and pre-amps. There are some forgotten gems out there that have faded from the memory of many hobbyists, or they never got into this field when these products were offered.

But certainly I agree the current production gear is excellent stuff. I like my Liberty Audio phono stage, which is a factory direct piece from Peter Noerbeck at PBN Audio, and I believe its got tons of value. As does Jack Elliano's designs at Electra Print Audio. Now what does the future hold? Those people DIYing amps with NCore boards, well I have been hearing some very positive things about them.....

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[sharkmouth]

Seriously, that pig aint on Stillpoints, come back when you're ready!!

 

[BobM]

Personally, most people who could be considered "middle class" probably can't afford much that falls on Stereophile's A list or TAS's best of list. At least not the current lists. Now most non-audiophiles would also say spending $5000 on an audio system is ludicrous 9and we could easily spend that on any one piece of audio equipment).

So for an audiophile on a budget the used market is the right place to start, and equipment from the 80's - 2000 that was formally thought of as excellent can still be excellent in all regards, including the pocket book.

Think about it, this includes brands such as:
- Mark Levinson
- Apogee
- McCormack
- Pass
- Alon
- VPI
- and a ton of others

 

[Petro85]

great point mr pig. i get around and listen to stuff. i got 3 appointments next week. and in the past say 1995- 2009 i was all around the country listening to everything i could. some of my favorite gear leans in the 1999- 2007 range. some of my favorite preamps including the one i own are from that era, and id put it up against just about anything ive heard in today market. (almost anything), today just like in the past there are gems in the market to be found. there are also way over hyped ,over marketed products that people love today but wont stand the test of time. you see items on audiogon that in 2004 were selling for say $2500 used, that are still selling for $2500 used in 2014.
now i can go off and name 20 products that i think are gems, and although too new to be considered classic, they might not keep up with the technology of todays equipment, but they still have the most important part . they sound damn good!!!!

 

[Mike]

Memory is a fickle thing. There are older products - and no less significant - that are from great brands and great products for fair prices. My friend Jeff picked up a VAC PA100/100 amp circa 1990's for $1600. It sounds amazing (better than the current $11,000 phi200 IMO).

I think the key is to also look for brands that were king of the hill in previous years (but aren't the flavor of the month today). Examples would be: Cary, CJ, Levinson, Rowland and BAT....and many others.

You also need to look at business/economic situations to uncover good deals. A pair of Carver 180 cherry amps can be had VERY cheaply today.

Shrewd audiophiles can also focus their speaker purchasing energies on a particular design vs a particular brand. Dipole speakers for example are much more room friendly and therefore save the frugal audiophile from spending money on room treatments.

Last but not least, there are some incredible sounding products coming out of Asia these days that not only have great build quality, but sound superb - for a fair price.

 

[Petro85]

Last but not least, there are some incredible sounding products coming out of Asia these days that not only have great build quality, but sound superb - for a fair price.

great point mike. couple years ago people would run from anything made in china, now people are starting to see that there is great value in things made there. when building them they can spend the same money on the parts and less on the labor than other places can and give you a good product for a great deal. where the european and us products seem to be getting more expensive, and not necessarily giving you a better product

 

[Mister Pig]

Memory is a fickle thing. There are older products - and no less significant - that are from great brands and great products for fair prices. My friend Jeff picked up a VAC PA100/100 amp circa 1990's for $1600. It sounds amazing (better than the current $11,000 phi200 IMO).

I think the key is to also look for brands that were king of the hill in previous years (but aren't the flavor of the month today). Examples would be: Cary, CJ, Levinson, Rowland and BAT....and many others.

You also need to look at business/economic situations to uncover good deals. A pair of Carver 180 cherry amps can be had VERY cheaply today.

Shrewd audiophiles can also focus their speaker purchasing energies on a particular design vs a particular brand. Dipole speakers for example are much more room friendly and therefore save the frugal audiophile from spending money on room treatments.

Last but not least, there are some incredible sounding products coming out of Asia these days that not only have great build quality, but sound superb - for a fair price.

The products coming out of Asia are really kind of polarizing for the hobby these days. Quite a few of the pieces really have got the trendy cosmetic looks down, but when you pop the cover there are some under built power supplies in the things! Now I mostly gravitate towards tube gear, so that is where my focus is at. It costs real money to build quality transformers no matter what country it is sourced from, and there is a ton of tube gear that is trying to hit price points that are extremely optimistic. It's wild to see some of these amps so neatly assembled, such wonderful build quality, but rated at power levels that are only a fraction of what the output tubes are capable of.

But with that said, there are pieces from Asia that I would love to try out also. I have been keeping my eye on the GD Audio components, and would love to spend some time with their products. Of course Stello out of South Korea has developed a solid reputation for quality products, and the prices are not unreasonable. I have seen some pieces from Shugaung that look quite nice also.

But if you are diligent and search hard enough, you can find some interesting pieces that are affordable from small manufacturers. Now I admit that I tend to gravitate to small companies as I find that owners/designers have a passion for audio that transcends making a quick buck. For instance there is a Canadian company called Ideal Innovations that makes very nicely built tube gear that can be afforded by many a person in this hobby. Is it cheap? No, but it certainly is inexpensive in today's market place.

Edit: I tried to toss a link into Ideal Innovations, but I don't have enough posts. Going to have to Google that company yourself if you are curious to look at it.



Mapletree Audio Design is another one that comes to mind. Dr Peppard pre-amps are pretty darn fine. There used to be another company called H2O Audio that built some remarkable ICE based amplifiers, that while are more costly than these other pieces, are reported to be very very good. I remember one reportedly being stable into 1 ohm and capable of driving Apogee Scintilla. In terms of speaker manufacturers, I have come across products from both Bamberg Audio and GR Research that are value packed. For conventional speakers, I think their value to cost ratio is quite promising. So I guess the point of this rambling post is that I think there is a lot of value in current production pieces also, even for us of modest means, but it requires taking a patient and careful search to find the small companies that may offer those kind of products.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[Mike]

The US products still represent great value if you live in America and don't have added shipping and duty charges. European gear is overpriced here in the US - for the most part - because of the same reasons (duty and shipping) and partly because they just charge more. I'm not a huge fan of the European gear value proposition....generally speaking of course. Just one look at the pair of Soulution 700 monoblocks on Audiogon will give you an idea why.

Also, at CES, I found many "unknown" and "new" European companies charging exorbitant prices. Nick and I heard a pair of small 2 way speakers from one of these new companies and we both guessed the price would be around $15,000 - and that was taking into account the European factors. They ended up costing $42,000 and didn't sound any better than the $5000 Bryston speakers. Just saying....YMMV.

 

[ohbythebay]

The products coming out of Asia are really kind of polarizing for the hobby these days.

Hey guys...just want to chime in on the Asia thing John just mentioned. They are absolutely gaining market share (rightfully so) by clobbering some markets that were often too spendy for the average audio guy. Formerly, tube amps and such were in nose bleed territory and out of reach for Joe average. Out of the woodwork comes a plethora of Chinese made tube equipment that (lets be honest) is not that bad. They may not have the long lasting design quality of a Macintosh Tube amp but they are 1/5th or less in cost. And dropping.

Also, lets look at the fact that they are also providing huge variety. Headphone amps. Intetgrateds. Power amps. combos with built in DAC, etc.

I myself have the Chinese made AUNE T1 Tube DAC...what a phenominal device for $159 ...

I think these satisfy a customer set that was previously left out of some nice stuff...LOL

 

[Mister Pig]

Well the importer needs to make money for their services, stocking product, providing product knowledge and training, dealing with warranty claims, procuring parts and what not. Yeah it adds say 35% or more to the cost of a product that is imported. Of course it works both ways, the price of a set of Audio Research amps in Europe is exponentially higher also. If you are the adventurous type and want to order from a direct seller in China, the shipping costs for a piece can be sobering. It is not unheard to to pay well over a 150% for a medium sized amplifier to get it to the US. Then you really have no warranty to speak of, since you are not going to pay the shipping costs back and forth to get it repaired if the need arises. Certainly you are going to get more bang for the buck if you can source a component that meets your needs from a domestic supplier. But on the other hand there were some European products that were remarkable in the past 20 years that did not seem to have a competitive domestic counterpart. Say the Creek series of integrated amps, or the ProAc, Celestion, Rogers, and Castle bookshelf and monitor speakers. Some would include the LP 12 turntable or the Quad series of electrostats. As you say there are no hard and fast rules for where gear comes from.....

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[ohbythebay]

Very true..I have seen some of these have a price of $250 - with $150 shipping !! Lately though I notice some enterprising Americans are buying and stocking these so you can get them at a better price (they must get a volume discount) and much faster delivery.

Back to your original premise (sorry I diverged a bit) there are some great deals to be had on vintage equipment that is stellar in quality and a fraction of the cost of todays new.

 

[NorthStar]

Oh I certainly can see that point> I use some TBI Audio Millenia Class D integrated amp as my reference point of what can be accomplished with affordable audio gear. These little amps are remarkable, especially when powered off of DC battery power. I like what I hear from quite a few companies. I just wonder about the forgotten pieces that fall between what we call vintage and what is current production. The stuff that gets lost in the cracks. For instance Soundstream is reported to have used Krell for their designer on their home amplifiers, which never gained traction. If you can find one, there is a lot of value there. Rockford Audio bought Hafler, which had bought Acoustat...and in the process incorporated Jim Strickland's Trans Nova circuit into their amps and pre-amps. There are some forgotten gems out there that have faded from the memory of many hobbyists, or they never got into this field when these products were offered.

But certainly I agree the current production gear is excellent stuff. I like my Liberty Audio phono stage, which is a factory direct piece from Peter Noerbeck at PBN Audio, and I believe its got tons of value. As does Jack Elliano's designs at Electra Print Audio. Now what does the future hold? Those people DIYing amps with NCore boards, well I have been hearing some very positive things about them.....

Regards
Mister Pig

You mentioned some excellent points in your excellent post and I see your value point in some of yesterday's electronics, from the era you are referring to.

And I am sure that some (many) older/vintage audio electronic products are still better than a lot of newer audio products made today.
Then yes the value is best in them. ...Music is still music, non-amplified music is still the best. ...No crossover is the best x-over.
...No digital/analog filter is better than none. ...And less is more.

Value can't be define overall; each person's own definition is valuable to him/her personally.

 

[NorthStar]

...
Now I admit that I tend to gravitate to small companies as I find that owners/designers have a passion for audio that transcends making a quick buck. For instance there is a Canadian company called Ideal Innovations that makes very nicely built tube gear that can be afforded by many a person in this hobby. Is it cheap? No, but it certainly is inexpensive in today's market place.

Edit: I tried to toss a link into Ideal Innovations, but I don't have enough posts. Going to have to Google that company yourself if you are curious to look at it.

You only need four more posts, for a grand total of ten. => http://www.idealinnovations.biz

So I guess the point of this rambling post is that I think there is a lot of value in current production pieces also, even for us of modest means, but it requires taking a patient and careful search to find the small companies that may offer those kind of products.

Regards
Mister Pig

Is Job one of them? ...Oppo Digital? ...Dirac Live? ...Paradigm? ...Triangle? ...SV Sound? ...Andrew Jones Pioneer's speaker designs? ...Emotiva?

Krell's gear of yesterday; good value, good prices? ...Wadia? ...Meridian? ...Esoteric? ...Simaudio Moon? ...Nagra? ...Arcam? ...Quad ESL? ...Musical Fidelity? ...Lamm Industries? ...mbl? ...VTL? ...EAR? ...And so much more.

 

[Mister Pig]

You only need four more posts, for a grand total of ten. =



Is Job one of them? ...Oppo Digital? ...Dirac Live? ...Paradigm? ...Triangle? ...SV Sound? ...Andrew Jones Pioneer's speaker designs? ...Emotiva?

Krell's gear of yesterday; good value, good prices? ...Wadia? ...Meridian? ...Esoteric? ...Simaudio Moon? ...Nagra? ...Arcam? ...Quad ESL? ...Musical Fidelity? ...Lamm Industries? ...mbl? ...VTL? ...EAR? ...And so much more.

Those listed companies certainly are considered some of the more attractive products that the cost conscious hobbyist will gravitate to. Actually I did not know of the Job until I came across a thread about it here, and it looks to be a very interesting amp. The price appears to be quite fair, and it appears that many people are smitten by its performance. Sounds like one of those hidden gems of current production equipment that is a culmination of solid design work. I certainly hope to hear one in the near future. There are interesting stories behind one of those companies you listed. SVS is an interesting speaker company, and one of their previous generations of products was designed by Philip Bamberg, who did work for Klipsch and Boston Acoustics. I really enjoyed a couple of his products released under his own company name, and I did have a chance to hear the SVS speaker he designed. Very talented fellow, and so far I appreciate everything I hear from him.

I happened to notice your list is split between two different categories, with one being at the affordable end of the spectrum and the other composed of gear that is several more tiers up. I find the distinction interesting. There is a train of thought that seems to have come into being that audio gear is good if the owner likes it. I understand that personal satisfaction is a key factor in our hobby, as only the owner has to listen and appreciate a particular piece of gear. But on the other hand I struggle a bit with this idea, as I feel that certain pieces of gear are inherently superior in its ability to create an illusion of music. I guess the idea of an Absolute Sound still sticks with me, as I am a child of the 80's. On this site there are members who share their gear that is at the tippy top of the mountain, and they have wonderful and beautiful systems! Simple barnyard animals such as myself are regulated to what I call affordable high performance gear, and I get to play at the shallow end of the pool. Which is A OK, because I get to enjoy music in a direct and personal way that works for me, just as other people are fortunate enough to enjoy those remarkable systems they have assembled. The trick for pigs of limited means is to find a way to cheat, and possibly find a way to climb a step or two higher within the limits of my audio kitty. Sometimes it is finding a hidden gem of a current production piece such as the Job 225 could be, and as I feel the Liberty B2B-1 phono stage is. Sometimes it is to find that forgotten piece of used gear off the used market, such as this N.E.W. DCA 33 amplifier I recently bought appears to be. Or perhaps something along the lines of a VAC tube amp, or the Bedini amps, gear that has kind of been forgotten and overlooked.

Of course with older gear there is risk. Risk that it works as well as the previous seller says it does. Risk that it does not need service in the near future, or that you will need to invest in it immediately to bring it into spec. The hidden costs of used gear can escalate quickly. but with no risk there is no reward, it is just a matter of how you balance it.

I once ran across a person on a board who would state over and over that audio is a balancing of priorities. For most of us I think he is right. Some are fortunate enough not to have to make difficult choices for their audio gear, and they are blessed. Although I suspect one could say that any mistakes they make in gear matching carry a far larger consequence than for those working at the shallow end. For those who participate at the lower levels, we get to decide what we cannot compromise in our sound and what is not quite as important....and then develop a system that can meet those goals. If we understand what the framework of system should be, then we are more likely to be successful in this hobby and enjoy our time listening to music. I think he was a very wise person, and I actually wonder if he has wandered into this board also. just more ramblings from a country pig I guess.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[mg8]

Ah the title of this post had me hooked! I look backwards into the late 80's when I began this hobby and would love to a have more than couple pieces back in my house. For at least two reasons, nostalgia and comparative performance to the new current stuff. Many of the brands have definitely "ebbed and flowed" in greatness over that 30+ year span. I think I could live with the ML 23.5 amp, ML 36 DAC, Parasound HCA 2200, the McIntosh C36 preamp, Thiel 3.6, and Apogee Divas that I had. I would probably scaled down the Diva to the duetta II just for size. Those pieces immediately come to mind as lost treasures for the era (IMO). The Audio Research is a brand I didn't have "back in the day" which I was always impressed with. I would say that any stalwart brand that can still service it's products is a reasonable option.

The thing that always makes me laugh is, how can a brand come out with revelatory products every two to 5 years. Yes, they are usually better but I was was happy with almost every component that I bought over the years. I know, its like comparing the current NFL with the NFL of 1970 in some cases, but really, was the 1970 Super Bowl less of a contest than the 2013 game?

I often think about vintage gear and consider whether high-end bargain gear is better than the high-end of yesteryear. Better and different are often synonyms in audio. Only my $0.02. But the new Sonus Faber are gorgeous, I digress. ;-)

 

[Mister Pig]

Ah the title of this post had me hooked! I look backwards into the late 80's when I began this hobby and would love to a have more than couple pieces back in my house. For at least two reasons, nostalgia and comparative performance to the new current stuff. Many of the brands have definitely "ebbed and flowed" in greatness over that 30+ year span. I think I could live with the ML 23.5 amp, ML 36 DAC, Parasound HCA 2200, the McIntosh C36 preamp, Thiel 3.6, and Apogee Divas that I had. I would probably scaled down the Diva to the duetta II just for size. Those pieces immediately come to mind as lost treasures for the era (IMO). The Audio Research is a brand I didn't have "back in the day" which I was always impressed with. I would say that any stalwart brand that can still service it's products is a reasonable option.

The thing that always makes me laugh is, how can a brand come out with revelatory products every two to 5 years. Yes, they are usually better but I was was happy with almost every component that I bought over the years. I know, its like comparing the current NFL with the NFL of 1970 in some cases, but really, was the 1970 Super Bowl less of a contest than the 2013 game?

I often think about vintage gear and consider whether high-end bargain gear is better than the high-end of yesteryear. Better and different are often synonyms in audio. Only my $0.02. But the new Sonus Faber are gorgeous, I digress. ;-)

Ah Apogees such a lovely speaker. I remember when I was a young pig and attending college, a high end store opened their doors for business. Advanced Audio was a dealer for Linn, and also carried Apogee, Martin Logan, and Celestion...among other brands. It was there that I got a my first chance in listening to Apogee Duettas, Martin Logan CLS, and Celestion SL 600. I was absolutely smitten with each pair of speakers, and could not claim a favorite. I admired the texture and harmonic density of the Apogee, and adored the sheer transparency of the CLS, and was hopefully in love with the sweetness and texture of the SL 600. I would have happily owned any of them if I had the means.

What is a real shame is that it is incredibly difficult to find a well cared for pair of any of those speakers. Second hand Apogees usually have dents in the ribbons, and suffer from panel buzz due to the deteriorating foam insert. While CLS panels may no longer be available, and its even harder to find anyone to do the swap. The Nextel finish on the SL 600 does not wear well, and the drivers are also out of production. Beautiful beautiful speakers, that are slowly being lost as they age.

So did I ever buy anything from Advanced Audio. While poor, I did manage to scrape up the money to buy a pair of Spica TC 50 on close out, along with the Spica Servo Sub. They served me for 10 or maybe even 12 years before I was able to afford some other gear. I did enjoy the Spica, but they were no SL 600...that is for sure.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[mg8]

Master Pig,

I visit this page ever once in a while. Apogee restorations (they have inventory as well):

APOGEE RESTORATION - TRUE SOUND WORKS AUDIO, INC.

 

[just dave]

Ah Apogees such a lovely speaker. I remember when I was a young pig and attending college, a high end store opened their doors for business. Advanced Audio was a dealer for Linn, and also carried Apogee, Martin Logan, and Celestion...among other brands. It was there that I got a my first chance in listening to Apogee Duettas, Martin Logan CLS, and Celestion SL 600. I was absolutely smitten with each pair of speakers, and could not claim a favorite. I admired the texture and harmonic density of the Apogee, and adored the sheer transparency of the CLS, and was hopefully in love with the sweetness and texture of the SL 600. I would have happily owned any of them if I had the means.

What is a real shame is that it is incredibly difficult to find a well cared for pair of any of those speakers. Second hand Apogees usually have dents in the ribbons, and suffer from panel buzz due to the deteriorating foam insert. While CLS panels may no longer be available, and its even harder to find anyone to do the swap. The Nextel finish on the SL 600 does not wear well, and the drivers are also out of production. Beautiful beautiful speakers, that are slowly being lost as they age.

So did I ever buy anything from Advanced Audio. While poor, I did manage to scrape up the money to buy a pair of Spica TC 50 on close out, along with the Spica Servo Sub. They served me for 10 or maybe even 12 years before I was able to afford some other gear. I did enjoy the Spica, but they were no SL 600...that is for sure.

Regards
Mister Pig

Hey piggy :hi: