Experiment [With Photos]: Which machine(s): VPI + Audio Desk + Klaudio actually cleans?

Golucid

Golucid

Taking a break
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Here is a sneak peek at one of the vinyl discs cleaned through a VPI HW27 Typhoon + Audio Desk + Klaudio this morning today [but the photo is the uncleaned edition photo].

Did it take one pass through the VPI, Klaudio or Audio Desk to get it clean? Multiple passes? Did one or two machines work and another didn't? Did it require the work of all three?

In perfect scenarios, we buy new records or, our records that are already mint or even better, they are already cleaned and we continue to clean them over and over in new machines.So, it's kinda hard to tell which machine is actually getting the job done. So...in the spirit of our excitement about our new toy we declare subjective statements such as "oh my god, sonic improvement" "it's so airy, loose, forward, present" on and on.

For me, that's not enough. I want real life. I go to records stores and buy used LPs, 7", 12", EPs and garage sales, Amazon, eBay, EIL, Gemm, hand me downs and just about all of them have crap on them: boogers, hand prints, catchup, jelly, dust, sticky stuff, you name it.

If I am dropping $4,000 on a machine and in my case, I have three and will have four. They should all be awesome or at least disclose what the limits are and embrace additional alternatives, yes?

Well, my goal here is to show you what my experience has been and open a discussion to share ideas about reaching a cleaning nirvana on all the machines.

This is not a thread about "I hate some brand" "this brand is better" and all that junk - that's myopic. Instead, I want information about successful results - to find out what truly honestly works. I was never a fan of the story, The Prince's New Clothes. There is no room for being mean spirited because I know this is a passionate subject. So, lets look at it as an opportunity to be really educated about vinyl cleaning processes. Right, wrong or indifferent...everyone has their own way of what works. Share it. Embrace it.

Stay tuned for a full report. I'm working on it this evening and I have tons of photos and documentation. In the meantime, enjoy the attached photo! It was a messy process to say the least.
 
Nice David, looking forward to what you discover. Do you have a USB microscope by chance? Might be fascinating to see into the grooves for the comparison too if possible.
 
MikeCh said:
Nice David, looking forward to what you discover. Do you have a USB microscope by chance? Might be fascinating to see into the grooves for the comparison too if possible.
Click to expand...

No, I don't and I have never hear do such a thing...now I want to know more!
 
Do a google search for dino lite usb microscope. If you don't want to spend that amount, do an ebay search for usb microscope. There are zillions of Chinese knock offs of the Dino Lite. These are the types of microscopes folks use for their SRA pictures of their stylus profiles. I would think with proper lighting, a USB microscope would allow a nice view into the grooves of an LP.
 
David has gone to a lot of effort,money, and time to really address what it takes to get our records sounding their best. I'm starting to be convinced that I should get another VPI RCM so that I can do a 2 step process to really get the best out of my vinyl.

I love my Klaudio, but I think when a record is really dirty it takes both to get it clean. My US machine won't remove oils or other nasty deposits. But it still improves the quality of playback, so I want both!
 
MDP said:
David has gone to a lot of effort,money, and time to really address what it takes to get our records sounding their best. I'm starting to be convinced that I should get another VPI RCM so that I can do a 2 step process to really get the best out of my vinyl.

I love my Klaudio, but I think when a record is really dirty it takes both to get it clean. My US machine won't remove oils or other nasty deposits. But it still improves the quality of playback, so I want both!
Click to expand...


Good point Mark. I kind of think of it like a car wash. You can spray your car off with high pressure water (no touching with a brush or sponge) and get it mostly clean, but the best clean is using the same high pressure water AND using a sponge with soapy water. Bad analogy?
 
Golucid said:
Here is a sneak peek at one of the vinyl discs cleaned through a VPI HW27 Typhoon + Audio Desk + Klaudio this morning today [but the photo is the uncleaned edition photo].

Did it take one pass through the VPI, Klaudio or Audio Desk to get it clean? Multiple passes? Did one or two machines work and another didn't? Did it require the work of all three?

In perfect scenarios, we buy new records or, our records that are already mint or even better, they are already cleaned and we continue to clean them over and over in new machines.So, it's kinda hard to tell which machine is actually getting the job done. So...in the spirit of our excitement about our new toy we declare subjective statements such as "oh my god, sonic improvement" "it's so airy, loose, forward, present" on and on.

For me, that's not enough. I want real life. I go to records stores and buy used LPs, 7", 12", EPs and garage sales, Amazon, eBay, EIL, Gemm, hand me downs and just about all of them have crap on them: boogers, hand prints, catchup, jelly, dust, sticky stuff, you name it.

If I am dropping $4,000 on a machine and in my case, I have three and will have four. They should all be awesome or at least disclose what the limits are and embrace additional alternatives, yes?

Well, my goal here is to show you what my experience has been and open a discussion to share ideas about reaching a cleaning nirvana on all the machines.

This is not a thread about "I hate some brand" "this brand is better" and all that junk - that's myopic. Instead, I want information about successful results - to find out what truly honestly works. I was never a fan of the story, The Prince's New Clothes. There is no room for being mean spirited because I know this is a passionate subject. So, lets look at it as an opportunity to be really educated about vinyl cleaning processes. Right, wrong or indifferent...everyone has their own way of what works. Share it. Embrace it.

Stay tuned for a full report. I'm working on it this evening and I have tons of photos and documentation. In the meantime, enjoy the attached photo! It was a messy process to say the least.
Click to expand...

+1,000,000 Thank you David! I'm looking forward to the info.:)
 
I'm already starting to save up for one of those V8 US jobs which will take me about a year if all goes well, (a lot less time than it would take to try to save up $4k). I'm not going to do 8 records at a time though, I'd have to clean the other 7 again after the first one is done and dried.
Yes, I want a US machine to add to my VPI. The US will be the final process. The guy who sells the V8 uses a little bit of alcohol and Tergital or photoflo as a surfactant, but I don't think I'll need to if I'm using the VPI first because the RCFs I use already have a surfactant. (Besides, it isn't easy getting Tergitol and I have no place to store it). Of course I'll know more when I get one.
 
MikeCh said:
Good point Mark. I kind of think of it like a car wash. You can spray your car off with high pressure water (no touching with a brush or sponge) and get it mostly clean, but the best clean is using the same high pressure water AND using a sponge with soapy water. Bad analogy?
Click to expand...

That's the exact analogy I was thinking of. Growing up in Minnesota as a kid, cars would get so filthy in the winter that nothing but elbow grease and soap and water would get the grime off.

I think that for most of my records, a good cleaning with the Klaudio will suffice, but for some I think the 2 step process is going to get better results.
 
Who's taking the odds on for the trifecta? I got money on The German.
 
Steve said:
Who's taking the odds on for the trifecta? I got money on The German.
Click to expand...

I'll pick the machine made in:

USA-Flag.jpg
 
I just got this info from a dealer that sells the Clearaudio Double Matrix: "The protective layer on a record is very soft. This is what keeps a record from looking like a piece of plumbing pipe after a couple of years. The ultrasonic machines have enough force to remove hardened debris, which means that they will damage the soft protective layer as well".

I'm confused though because The Double Matrix employs ultrasonics, doesn't it? Also Michael Fremer uses a US machine and he would never use nor recommend anything harmful to records for people to use.

I'm confused now because I use a US machine to clean my eyeglasses and the coatings on lenses are just as soft if not softer and I've had no ill effects on my glasses from using it. I don't think a US RCM uses stronger US signals than my eyeglass machine. In fact, maybe even not as strong. I don't know.
Perhaps your experiment David will verify or bring more clarity on this? I'd like to scientifically verify that statement from the dealer because to me, there seems to be a contradiction what has been apparently proven and what I already know. I could be wrong.

~Eric
 
MusicDirector said:
I'm confused though because The Double Matrix employs ultrasonics, doesn't it? Also Michael Fremer uses a US machine and he would never use nor recommend anything harmful to records for people to use.
Click to expand...


Hey Eric,


This is a quote from Clear Audio "Clearaudio has created a new articulating washing/vacuuming system that incorporates sonic vibrations to better deep scrub the record groove. These cleaning applicators automatically adapt to different thickness records, assuring better performance and ease of use. Clearaudio’s R&D team has learned that this approach performs a more thorough job of cleaning without risking damage to the vinyl record, versus ultrasonic cleaners commonly used to clean hard materials such as jewelry and glass. The sonically articulating cleaning pads can be easily removed for washing as well as replacing the micro-felt strips."

http://www.musicalsurroundings.com/product/double-matrix-professional-sonic/


David
 
David, It's about time! Glad to hear from you.


Golucid said:
Hey Eric,


This is a quote from Clear Audio "Clearaudio has created a new articulating washing/vacuuming system that incorporates sonic vibrations to better deep scrub the record groove. These cleaning applicators automatically adapt to different thickness records, assuring better performance and ease of use. Clearaudio’s R&D team has learned that this approach performs a more thorough job of cleaning without risking damage to the vinyl record, versus ultrasonic cleaners commonly used to clean hard materials such as jewelry and glass. The sonically articulating cleaning pads can be easily removed for washing as well as replacing the micro-felt strips."

http://www.musicalsurroundings.com/product/double-matrix-professional-sonic/


David
Click to expand...
 
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